Eph. 1: Does it support Calvinism?

[Brother Bob]

Eph: 1

Ephesians, chapter 1
1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: ( This is what he chose before the foundation of the world ).
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (This is by who we would be adopted that was predestinated)
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Saying that we were saved by Grace of God).
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (Saying it takes the blood of Christ to save us and not predestinaton).
8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (Saying "Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men).
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Saying that the middle wall of partition would be broke down where we become as one people in Christ).
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (saying the inheritance was predestinated if we would do what He commanded and that is repent and believe).
12: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Saying that those who first trusted in Christ would obtain an inheritance that had been predestinated being the way they would receive Salvation).
13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Saying that we too can obtain that inheritance if we trust in Christ and believe). Its as simple as that giving all men a chance to be Saved.:thumbs:

 

[Dale-c]

Thanks, you just proved out point with verse after verse clearly stating that we have been predestined to salvation.

 

[Brother Bob]

Ephesians, chapter 4

"14": That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

"15": But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

"16": From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

"17": This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

"18": Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

 

[Rippon]

That'll preach BB .

 

[Brother Bob]

that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

inheritance, being predestinated

ye also trusted after that ye believed

Very glad to see both of you agree that it is the above and not the individual that was predestinated. :thumbs:

 

[J.D.]

that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

inheritance, being predestinated

ye also trusted after that ye believed

Very glad to see both of you agree that it is the above and not the individual that was predestinated. :thumbs:

Romans 8

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

 

[Dale-c]

I don't know how you can keep arguing with someone that keeps saying that whom means a thing. Someone who ignores the clear meaning of scripture.
:-(

Good post JD

 

[J.D.]

I don't know how you can keep arguing with someone that keeps saying that whom means a thing. Someone who ignores the clear meaning of scripture.
:-(

Good post JD

Actually, I have given up. I'm just posting scripture for fun now. It really bugs em!

 

[Brother Bob]

Don't bug me at all, your lack of understanding is hard comprehend.
Romans 8
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Love the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve which is the first Commandment is it not?
No where does it say before the foundation of the world but that he foreknew them. He foreknew them before Salvation and then were they part of the predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.
None of them were justified before, none of them were called before, none of them conformed to the image of His Son before, none of them were glorified before.
It took faith/belief in Christ for these things to happen.:thumbs:

 

[Brother Bob]

John, chapter 6
"44": No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John, chapter 12
"32": And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John, chapter 14
"9": Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?raise:

 

[Rippon]

" Hard comprehend " ?

I love the verses you quote BB . He foreknew people not things ... THOSE he foreknew .

Perhaps repeating biblical truths enough times you will get it . But don't harden your heart against His Word .

Good work J.D. and Dale .

 

[J.D.]

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified:

Who did God call? Whom he did predestinate.

So did God call anyone that was not predestinated? No.

But you'll say he called everyone. O.K.

So who did he justify? Whom he called.

So is everyone is justified?

And who did he glorify? Whom he justified.

So is everyone glorified?

 

[Brother Bob]

Rippon I used "that" as that was what was foreknown. You all are trying to make something out of nothing. Bless raying:

 

[Brother Bob]

John, chapter 6
"44": No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John, chapter 12
"32": And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John, chapter 14
"9": Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


That is ALL men that He drawed. :Fish: :sleeping_2:

 

[BD17]

BB you are skipping some very important parts in John... such as,

35Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."



41So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?" 43Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me-- 46not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."



52The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." 59Jesus[c] said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.



The Words of Eternal Life
60When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."


So BB the ALL that you speak of is the ONES that God hath chosen before the foundation of the world. The ones he has given to Jesus. ALL must be taken in context of when it is used!!


Must use all of the Book and chapters that you quote from not just verses BB.

 

[webdog]

So BB the ALL that you speak of is the ONES that God hath chosen before the foundation of the world. The ones he has given to Jesus.

Classic calvinistic mistake. "All" are those who come.
Jesus said that unless the Father drew someone to Himself that he could not come to him. Hence, what can we assume? That some are drawn/enticed to come to Him by the Father. Now what else is clear here? It is clear that those who have come to Christ He will raise up on the last day. So we can assume that everyone who comes to Jesus will be raised up. We can also assume that everyone who comes to Jesus was drawn by the Father. But we cannot assume that everyone who is drawn to Jesus WILL come to Him. The text does not say that. Dr. Paul Dixon wrote a dissertation on taking NT statements to be saying more than was intended logically, and I believe that this applies here.

Now the contrapositive of a statement always works. The inverse and converse cannot be assumed, which is what one must do to assume that all who are drawn come.

 

[BD17]

The text says all that the Father gives him will come that means that not all are given. v.37

39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

So who is raised up on the last day? all that have been given.

 

[webdog]

The text says all that the Father gives him will come that means that not all are given. v.37

*sigh* The contrapositive of a statement always works. The inverse and converse cannot be assumed

 

[BD17]

What does not work about saying all that the father gives him will will be raised up. All that are given were called. Sounds like it works to me, no assumption there.

 

[webdog]

What does not work about saying all that the father gives him will will be raised up. All that are given were called. Sounds like it works to me, no assumption there.

ahhh, but that's not what you said. You said..."The text says all that the Father gives him will come that means that not all are given. v.37"

Big difference from your last post to this one.