This is what Peter is talking about when he says people misunderstand Paul to their destruction. To teach that it is wrong to obey Jesus is a teaching one could imagine Satan laughing about.
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Eph. 2:8-9 parallel with Titus 3:5 on good works
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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This is what Peter is talking about when he says people misunderstand Paul to their destruction. To teach that it is wrong to obey Jesus is a teaching one could imagine Satan laughing about.
WhaT I posted IS the Gospel!
To add or mix ANY good works with it is to have "another Gospel" comdemned by God!
We are not teaching that anyone should disobey Christ's commands. We are debating the PURPOSE for keeping his commands.
You are teaching that the PUPRPOSE for keeping his commands is to be regenerated and justified, while we are teaching that the PURPOSE for keeping his commandments is LOVE in response to regeneration/justification not IN ORDER TO BE regenerated and justified. We are teaching that commandment keeping is essential to progressive sanctification but no amount of commandment keeping can regenerate or justify you before God as only the Person and commandment keeping of Christ imputed to you by faith can justify you before God - because He is the only One who has ever obeyed God according to God's standard for justification - "be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is perfect" so that not one point of the MORAL LAW is ever violated (James 2:10-13).
So you are building a straw man when you allege we deny commandment keeping when in fact, we deny only YOUR PURPOSE for commandment keeping.
I teach to keep Jesus’ commands is to remain in God’s love, just as Jesus says.
John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
You are the one building a straw man. You make up things I have not said and say it is my beliefs. Where do I say we do not have to go through Jesus! That is a slanderous lie.
That answer of his is a common one for RCC, and others who distort the Gospel!
because they see the need to become perfect in behaviour in order to be freely justified by god, they teach that those saying its by grace and faith alone teach another gospel!
NONE would advocate getting saved by God, and still live in life of sinning, as that would be a person who NEVER understood the Gospel of grace!
that is why christ died, in order to have us saved, and to enable us to live right once saved, as in ourselves we can do NEITHER!
Faith without deeds is dead. It is never a saving faith. See James 2:14-25.
Please answer with simple yes or no answers.
Do you believe humans are totally depraved and cannot even hear and believe the message without first receiving the Holy Spirit? If yes, then know that there is no such scripture. In fact, the written Word of God says we get faith from hearing the powerful message, from being taught, and convinced. See Romans 10:14; Colossians 1:5, 7; 2 Timothy 3:14; 2 Corinthians 5:11. We do not receive the Holy Spirit first, we receive the Holy Spirit after we believe and obey. See Acts 5:32; 10:44; 11:14; 19:2.
So, you believe that God's love for His son was conditional?
Here is what I said, please point out where I said you said you do not have to go through Christ
We are teaching that commandment keeping is essential to progressive sanctification but no amount of commandment keeping can regenerate or justify you before God as only the Person and commandment keeping of Christ imputed to you by faith can justify you before God - because He is the only One who has ever obeyed God according to God's standard for justification - "be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is perfect" so that not one point of the MORAL LAW is ever violated (James 2:10-13).
So you are building a straw man when you allege we deny commandment keeping when in fact, we deny only YOUR PURPOSE for commandment keeping.
Where in the above statement did I ever charge you with saying that you believe that you do not come through Christ????? I was merely stating my own positon not your position.
The only charge that I made against you is:
So you are building a straw man when you allege we deny commandment keeping when in fact, we deny only YOUR PURPOSE for commandment keeping
You did in fact charge us with believing we do not have to keep His commandments and I quote:
To teach that it is wrong to obey Jesus is a teaching one could imagine Satan laughing about. - Moriah
You have made this charge numerous times against DHK and myself and others.
You have in fact claimed many times that keeping commandments is necessary to be saved and so the PURPOSE for keeping commandments is the genuine point of our disagreement and it is a straw man to charge us that we do not believing in keeping the commandments of Christ.
Can you not read and understand Jesus’ words in English? God’s love for His Son is conditional. If Jesus did not obey His Father, how would he not be like Satan?
Right here what you said!
In addition, stop twisting what James says. James quotes scripture saying, “be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect,” you change this to, “You cannot be perfect.”
Jesus says if you obey his teachings, you will remain in his love! If you go against what I said then you go against what Jesus says.
Are you kidding? You and others here DO teach that one cannot get Jesus’ teachings and try to obey them! Many of you here teach that it is a condemned belief to say one tries to obey God!
Your argument right here is an argument that one does not have to keep Jesus’ commandments. Tell me, if you do not keep Jesus’ commandments, do you remain in his love?
Who is speaking derogatory now? Did I make any such derogatory remarks about you in that post? If you condemn it in others wouldn't your own example either set the right example or be the cause to have it returned to you in like kind?? Think about it since you are the one complaining such language is wrong!
Do you have conditional love for your own children? Did your parents have conditional love for you? I am asking a very serious question. If unconditional love is the goal of human parents toward their children how could the Father in heaven offer a lessor love?
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I quoted Matthew 5:48 "be ye therefore Perfect EVEN AS your father in heaven is perfect" and then referenced James 10:10-13 to support the statement that obedience to the MORAL LAW was demanded in every point without failure. If you misunderstood it then it is clarified now for you.
I neither doubt his words or question his words but I question YOUR INTEPRETATION of his words. I believe the context refers to service in producing fruit for God in our lives and the experiential benefits such as "joy" and answered prayer and other blessings of God's MANIFEST love in contrast to the loss of joy, unanswered prayers due to disobedience.
I seriously do not know where you got that idea. I have never ever said such a thing. I have preached and taught for nearly 40 years to "trust and obey for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus but to trust and obey." I have taught for nearly 40 years that the definition of being "filled" with the Spirit or to "walk" in the Spirit is to live in submission to God's Word as a direct contrast of the lost man described in Romans 8:7 who is "not submission to the law of God."
However, I have just as equally taught for nearly 40 years and on this forum consistently that commandment keeping does not obtain regeneration (Eph. 2:10; Titus 3:5) or justification before God (Rom. 4:1-5:2). Hence, the issue between is not about commandment keeping but about the PURPOSE of commandment keeping.
Agan, you interpret our position that one does not keep commandments to obtain regeneration/justification to be a complete denial that Christians must obey God to remain in his love. We simply interpret it differently than you do without rejecting what Christ says. We believe the love he is referring to his the MANIFEST love as described in the immediate context of answered prayers, joy, fellowship and other MANIFEST blessings of God for obedience to His Word.
That is not derogatory. Read what Jesus plainly says, “If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
God is Perfect and Holy.
When you do something against your wife, or your brother, is that love? People need to get that wrong thinking out of their heads that we can do wrong to someone and it is love.
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I knew Jesus said that. I also knew James was quoting Leviticus.
Jesus said to remain in his love by obeying his commands, and that is what I repeated. So how is my interpretation wrong?
Why are you going against me? You go against me when I tell people to get Jesus’ teachings and obey them, and that is how we remain in his love. You go against me when I teach obedience. This post is proof of your actions.
Do not add or subtract to God’s word. Do not lean to the left or to the right of God’s word. That is what the Bible says.
I did not refer to what Jesus said but to what you said "Can't you read English."
You accused me of confusing Matthew with James and I did not! James was not quoting Leviticus but quoting the TEN COMMANDMENTS or can't you "read English" (now how does that sound aimed at you???).
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Neither is he quoting or referring to Levitcus but to the Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20 and Numbers 5.
What is wrong is not "what I repeated" but your interpretation of WHY one should keep his commandments.
Again, because of the PURPOSE you attribute to keeping His commandments.
That has nothing to do with INTERPRETATION. You can READ it right but not INTERPRET it right!
Yes, as we will ALWAYS be in the love of God, just will affect our fellowship with him!
Can you read what Jesus plainly says in English? If you want to remain in his love, obey his commands.
I did no such thing. I do not even know what you are talking about.
You quoted Peter saying be perfect for I am perfect. Peter is quoting Leviticus.
It is not an interpretation of why one should keep his commandments. It is simple and plain English. If you want to remain in Jesus’ love, then obey his teachings.
If you want God and Jesus to love you, get Jesus’ teachings, and obey them.
If you want to remain in Jesus’ love, then get his teachings and obey them. That is the Word of God.
If you want to remain in Jesus' love, then obey his teachings.
I am secured in christ, placed there by God the Father, sealed with/by Holy Spirit...
My relationship is forever secured, byt he Cross and sovereigty of God!
My fellowship will be affected by how I chose to walk and live, but still loved by god the same, just will grieve him if disobeying Him!
No one disagrees with what Jesus said. The disagreement is over what Jesus meant.
Here is what I said:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist
because He is the only One who has ever obeyed God according to God's standard for justification - "be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS your Father in heaven is perfect" so that not one point of the MORAL LAW is ever violated (James 2:10-13).
Here is your response to my words above:
In addition, stop twisting what James says. James quotes scripture saying, “be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect,” you change this to, “You cannot be perfect.” - Moriah
Jesus said this not James or Peter. Peter did not say this as you claim below. James did not say this as you claim above. Jesus said this in Matthew 5:48.
What James said in James 2:10-11 is a reference to Exodus or Numbers where the ten commandments are found not Leviticus!
I think you meant to say that Jesus is quoting Leviticus in Matthew 5:48 rather than Peter or James as neither said those words.
No, the words "be ye therefore perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect" are words from Jesus not Peter and are found in Matthew 5:48.
Here is one of our primary problems with discussing anything with you. You can't discern between what something says versus what it means. You don't know the difference between READING a verse and INTERPRETING the verse.
Before you throw a fit, let me give you an example. I quote Romans 4:5 where it SAYS we are "to him that worketh not but beleiveth". However, you do not disagree with how it reads but you disagree with me about what it means!
I agree but is Jesus talking about REDEMPTIVE love or is he talking about MANIFEST love. Is he talking about how to become and remain a child of God or how to obtain fruit in your life and maintain fellowship with God where you are experiencing His love? What does the context demonstrate? The context refers to bearing "fruit" and the blessings of fruit bearing - joy, answered prayer, etc.
Just curious as to how he sees us getting God to love us!
My bible states that God loved me, before I loved him, and yet while a sinner, he had Jesus die on my behalf!
The teaching in 2Peter 3 is that people wrest the Scripture to their own destruction. That applies to cults as the J.W.'s as well as to any others who hold to false doctrines.
I have proved you wrong on this again and again.
The Ten Commandments prove you wrong. You must try not to sin. If you don't try not to sin, then it is sin. Sin originates in the heart, as adultery. Jesus said "If a man looks upon a woman to lust after her with her already being in his heart, he has committed adultery."
You must try not to do that. If you don't try to keep your eyes from evil it is sin.
Trying not to sin is not a sin.
--Understand this. There is no such thing in the Christian vocabulary as "try." Let me demonstrate. On your keyboard "try" to type my name "DHK". You cannot do it. You cannot "try" to type "DHK." It is impossible for you to "try" to type DHK. You either do it or you don't.
The same is true for all of Christ's commands. There is no such thing is "try." You either obey or disobey. Don't tell me "try." You have either obeyed or disobeyed. There is no such thing as trying. Thus the law is impossible to obey. You can't "try." You can't keep. You fail every time.
You can't try. You either do or you don't. Make up your mind. Man doesn't search for God; God searches for Him. Works don't save. Works condemn. You can't "try" to get to heaven by works, because you can't work your way to heaven. There is no such thing as trying. You fail. You fall short. God accepts nothing less than perfection, and your works fall short of perfection every time. You can't try. There is no such thing. Either you succeed or you fail. And you fail.
Read and understand Galatians 3:10. You must keep all the law, from birth to death, continuing in it all without exception all your life or you are cursed. Do you do that? No, no man can do that. Thus you are cursed.
That is why Christ says in verse 13: "Christ has redeemed us from the works of the law..." It is not necessary for us to do good works in order for us to be saved. The law shows that we are guilty under sin.
Good works of any kind show that God has failed at the cross; prove that his blood was not sufficient to take away our sin. It is blasphemous. Either Christ paid the penalty for all of our sins, without any good works from us, or his death was all in vain. Which is it?
Your teachers might have put that in your head, but that in no way makes it so. In 2 Peter 3:16, where Peter says people misunderstand Paul to their destruction, this is said just after Peter says make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him and, bear in mind that our Lord’s patience MEANS SALVATION. It is no coincidence that Peter talks about not sinning and obeying THEN immediately says people misunderstand Paul to their destruction!
People that teach as you do, and say that we cannot try to obey God before we are saved, and that we are still saved even if we do not stop not one sin, those teachings are against the Word of God.
You say you have proved me wrong again and again for my saying that it is never okay to sin! That is ridiculous; you are going against me for me saying it is never okay to sin!
In addition, just because you say you have proven me wrong does not make it so.
More silly debate tactics from you let us see how it goes over with you when I say it.
DHK, the Ten Commandments prove you wrong.
Now are you starting to understand? You say a person is speaking a condemned belief when they say they tried not to sin and obey God when Jesus saved them.
That is a screwy teaching that people teach to their destruction, because they do not understand what Paul was trying to teach.
A person can get Jesus’ teachings and begin to obey each of them before they finally are saved.
Your human reasoning is not helping your debate. You can try to obey by getting Jesus’ teachings and going through each command and obeying.
Do you understand?
Since you have a hard time understanding me, I will reword it for you.
Obeying Jesus’ teachings one teaching at a time, before a person is saved is possible, AND IT IS NOT A CONDEMNED BELIEF, AS YOU TEACH.
God searches and man searches that is what the Bible says. You speak things against the Word of God when you say, “Man doesn’t search for God.”
What do you think God is searching for when he searches man? I know, but how about you explain it.
Now, when you say “works” condemn, are you talking about obeying Jesus? If that is what you mean, then people will think you are out of your mind when you say obeying Jesus’ teaching condemns.
Do not try to make up things in this debate that I do not believe, and that I did not say.
ALL have to go through Jesus.
Another straw man tactic of yours, where did I say no one ever stumbles? You just keep with the routine speech, what your teachers have engrained into your head, you repeat without consideration.
God nailed circumcision to the cross, and all the external things people had to do just to worship God. God did not nail stop sinning to the cross.
Jesus paid the penalty, his blood is sufficient, and God searches our hearts to see who He will give His Spirit too. God gives His Spirit to those who obey, See John 14:23, and Acts 5:32. We have to be sorry for our sins.
What you teach is a confusion and distortion of God’s word.