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Ephesians 1:4-5
- Thread starter Helen
- Start date
The only "Contact" God has with sinners is "CALLING" them to repent, he doesn't "Mold" them into "ANYTHING" until they are saved,
God only chastises (mold) the saved into the type of "Vessel" he wants.
God loved the world, Jesus didn't come to condemn the world and died for the sins of the whole world that the world "MIGHT BE SAVED",
Now you deny the stated mission/purpose of God/Jesus by saying,
OH NO, the world "MIGHT NOT BE SAVED" Jesus did come to condemn because "GOD MADE" some vessels fit for destruction.
Adam made the vessels, not God, God/Jesus did their part to "Repair" the damage vessels, not condemn/destroy them.
I don't think it was me. If it was I don't remember it. Besides, if Christ's death did not cover everyone then how is it not limited?
Anyway, I don't convict anyone of anything. That's God's doing, and He is the one who said the by one man's disobedience the many became sinners. I know you don't like that but it's right there in black and white. There is no being made righteous by Christ's obedience unless one is first made a sinner by Adam's disobedience.
The fact that we are made sinners means we will sin. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. That is the verse so many of you seem to ignore in the very passage you keep referring to: Romans 5:12-21. By the way, I apologize for repeating my request. I didn't know you had already answered it. This thread is going awfully fast right now.
Helen, by the way, this view of Adam being mankind's representative is not unique to Calvinism, it is apart of all Evangelical theology, Calvinist or not.
So those who have not heard the law are innocent? Romans 2:12-16 says that people sin regardless of law being present or not. After an aside with the Jews in 2:17-29, Paul continues the discussion in chapter 3 to show that all have sinned.
Romans 2:12-16 answers your question above. Those who have no knowledge of the law are still sinners.
So those who have not heard the law are innocent? Romans 2:12-16 says that people sin regardless of law being present or not. After an aside with the Jews in 2:17-29, Paul continues the discussion in chapter 3 to show that all have sinned.
Romans 2:12-16 answers your question above. Those who have no knowledge of the law are still sinners.
Just to make one thing clear, I am VERY uncomfortable discussing the future of infants or of others like your son. I had a first cousin who, due to severe birth defects, lived just past his 20th birthday and could never speak of care for himself at all. I do believe that such people are counted as sinners in Adam AND are counted righteous in Christ. But while I know that I could be very wrong about how it works, I do believe that it does work, and that God cares for them and that none will perish.
So, I prefer to avoid the exceptional cases. What about the person who has full mental and physical capacites? That person was made a sinner by Adam's disobedience and what can be known about God has been revealed to him so the he is without excuse. He was born a sinner, so of course he has kept that family tradition going. What would possibly prevent it?
This is the testimony of Scripture. As we are made sinners by Adam's disobedience, so we are made righteous by Christ's obedience. That is the parallel as offered by Paul - not just that Christ has overcome the effects of our individual sins, but that Christ has overcome the effect of Adam's sin in mankind. Adam's sin defined who we once were. Christ's obedience defines who we are now.
It is too late for me to be doing this. You get the last word (for now).
So, I prefer to avoid the exceptional cases. What about the person who has full mental and physical capacites? That person was made a sinner by Adam's disobedience and what can be known about God has been revealed to him so the he is without excuse. He was born a sinner, so of course he has kept that family tradition going. What would possibly prevent it?
This is the testimony of Scripture. As we are made sinners by Adam's disobedience, so we are made righteous by Christ's obedience. That is the parallel as offered by Paul - not just that Christ has overcome the effects of our individual sins, but that Christ has overcome the effect of Adam's sin in mankind. Adam's sin defined who we once were. Christ's obedience defines who we are now.
It is too late for me to be doing this. You get the last word (for now).
Helen, I also think Rom. 5:13-14 answers your question. He is stating that people sin whether there is law (i.e., command) or not. But those who did not sin "after the similtude (likeness) of Adam's trangression" are those who have not broken a specific command from mouth of God like Adam did. Nevertheless, they still all sinned as stated in v. 12, the beginning of v. 13; and don't forget 2:12-16, and chapter 3.
There is sin that is direct disobedience of God's command, and there is sin that comes from being a law to themselves (2:14). Sin is anything that falls short of God's glory (3:23).
Helen, if you deny Adam's imputation of sin to us, then you deny Christ's imputation on our behalf for salvation. This puts you outside of normative Evangelical doctrine.
There is sin that is direct disobedience of God's command, and there is sin that comes from being a law to themselves (2:14). Sin is anything that falls short of God's glory (3:23).
Helen, if you deny Adam's imputation of sin to us, then you deny Christ's imputation on our behalf for salvation. This puts you outside of normative Evangelical doctrine.
The "flesh" sinned, Jesus didn't take aways the sins of the flesh, it's still "appointed" to die for it's sins.
Jesus took aways the "Conscience" sins, those we "consciously commit", that is "knowing good from evil", yet still sin, but being "conscience" of the sin, we "repent".
To be saved, we must "Recognize" our sin and need of a savior and "REPENT", no repenting, no salvation.
Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Babies are not "conscience of law/good/evil/sin", no law, no transgression.
To whatever: Yeah, you're back East. Sweet dreams. I have a sinus infection and that is why I have been here all night, sort of distracting myself. It's about time for me to quit, too. But yes, we can avoid the exceptional cases, and I appreciate your feelings there.
Yes we are all born sinners in the sense that we all have a sin nature and will sin just as soon as the law makes itself known. No argument there -- none at all. (Allow me to bring in Chris for one more moment here, though. It is clear to us who live with him that his sin nature is alive and well! He is a terrific sneak when it comes to food -- we lock the refrigerator -- and will head out that front door in a flash although he knows we will haul him back in. When I sign with deaf friends, Chris will stand right in between, knowing, somehow, that we cannot see each other then. He will also sit right in front of the TV so we can't see it. He knows. But can we actually hold him accountable for these 'sins'? Allow me to call them 'sins' in the widest sense for they are allow the rules we try to enforce in his life. But his sin nature causes him to break all of them he can comprehend -- nevertheless, we certainly can't punish him or hold him accountable in any way, right? I don't think he would EVER connect a punishment with the crime!)
And yes, we CAN be made righteous by Christ's obedience, but only if we are in Him -- I think we both agree on that point, too. People like Chris and your cousin are covered by Christ's sacrifice. Their sins are unintentional inasmuch as these people have no control over their sin nature, and there is sacrifice for unintentional sins in the OT. So while I am occasionally ready to bean Chris, God is not, and I praise Him for that!
And I don't think I really have any disagreement with your last paragraph there, except that I consider "the effect of Adam's sin in mankind" to be our sin natures, not any responsibility we have for what he chose to do thousands of years ago. Adam's sin bequeathed my sin nature to me, but I am an individual and was not defined by his sin(s), but by my own, as God says in Ezekiel. I may suffer the effects of all manner of sins that I did not personally commit, and not just from Adam, but I am accountable only for my own -- and even then, they have all been paid for on the cross by Christ.
So then it is only a matter of forgiveness. And that is mine for the asking (1 John). Just as salvation was.
Yes we are all born sinners in the sense that we all have a sin nature and will sin just as soon as the law makes itself known. No argument there -- none at all. (Allow me to bring in Chris for one more moment here, though. It is clear to us who live with him that his sin nature is alive and well! He is a terrific sneak when it comes to food -- we lock the refrigerator -- and will head out that front door in a flash although he knows we will haul him back in. When I sign with deaf friends, Chris will stand right in between, knowing, somehow, that we cannot see each other then. He will also sit right in front of the TV so we can't see it. He knows. But can we actually hold him accountable for these 'sins'? Allow me to call them 'sins' in the widest sense for they are allow the rules we try to enforce in his life. But his sin nature causes him to break all of them he can comprehend -- nevertheless, we certainly can't punish him or hold him accountable in any way, right? I don't think he would EVER connect a punishment with the crime!)
And yes, we CAN be made righteous by Christ's obedience, but only if we are in Him -- I think we both agree on that point, too. People like Chris and your cousin are covered by Christ's sacrifice. Their sins are unintentional inasmuch as these people have no control over their sin nature, and there is sacrifice for unintentional sins in the OT. So while I am occasionally ready to bean Chris, God is not, and I praise Him for that!
And I don't think I really have any disagreement with your last paragraph there, except that I consider "the effect of Adam's sin in mankind" to be our sin natures, not any responsibility we have for what he chose to do thousands of years ago. Adam's sin bequeathed my sin nature to me, but I am an individual and was not defined by his sin(s), but by my own, as God says in Ezekiel. I may suffer the effects of all manner of sins that I did not personally commit, and not just from Adam, but I am accountable only for my own -- and even then, they have all been paid for on the cross by Christ.
So then it is only a matter of forgiveness. And that is mine for the asking (1 John). Just as salvation was.
Helen, if you deny Adam's imputation of sin to us, then you deny Christ's imputation on our behalf for salvation. This puts you outside of normative Evangelical doctrine
LOL, I'm outside of normal creationism, too. Oh well...
There is no way you can be held accountable for what you did not do and had no influence over. That is simple.
Adam's sin bequeathed us our sin natures, but not his own sin(s).
Christ undid what Adam did and thus we have the opportunity to be born again in Him if that is what we want.
LOL, I'm outside of normal creationism, too. Oh well...
There is no way you can be held accountable for what you did not do and had no influence over. That is simple.
Adam's sin bequeathed us our sin natures, but not his own sin(s).
Christ undid what Adam did and thus we have the opportunity to be born again in Him if that is what we want.
Me4Him, I won't debate the biblical merits of this statement, but for sake of argument outside of biblical grounds - how do you know this? I mean, how do you know that they are not conscience of it? Because they can't articulate it? Or because you can't remember back when you were that little?
I'll give you a little personal testimony. I know this sounds weird, and I'm not bragging, but I actually can remember a few things back to when I was less than a year old. I can also remember an incident where I was about a year old (maybe 12-15 months - in that range, based on my Mom's solid memory of when it happened). Anyways, I was crawling at the time and escaped my mom's eye for a few minutes and went to my room, grabbed a bottle of baby powder and proceeded to pour it all over my room - my books, clothes, etc. All the while (and I can remember this), I knew I was doing something bad. I had a sense of secrecy - I kept looking over my shoulder. I knew if mom came in, she would be not be pleased.
So tell me, based on my testimony - did I sin at that time? I know I did, and I was still a "baby". My problem is, for some weird reason, I can remember it, while most people cannot remember that far back.
So again, how do you know that babies are unconscience of right and wrong?
Andy, we must be related. I can remember back to before I was 2 years old. One of my first memories is when my sister (3 years older) was playing with a match and deliberately burned a spot on the wood floor. I knew what she was doing was wrong. Maybe it's because I could sense from her that SHE knew it was wrong -- but I still knew it was wrong. But I thought it was cool.
Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Man "Consciously" knows "good/evil", law or no law, it the way God made man.
The sin "imputed" to man was through his flesh, or "lust of the flesh", which leads to sin.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
We're born in the flesh which is to "weak" to obey the law 100%, and one sin condemns.
The "LAW" reminds us of sin, when we sin, but being "conscience of sin" makes us repent, which God's grace will cover, if/when we repent.
Babies have never experienced the "lust of the flesh" which leads to sin, or "conscienceness of sin", they don't have that "one sin".
This is why Baptist teach the doctrine of "Age of accountability".
Babies (Spiritually/consciously) are as "innocent" as Adam/Eve were in the garden before God gave the commandment not to eat of the tree.