Ephesians 1:4-5

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Calvinbaptist:

Romans, chapter 9

"25": As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

How could they be both. They were not His people and then they were His people if they were chosen to not be His before the foundation of the world?

This goes back to what I said about God not being able to change his mind, Jesus was only sent to Israel, but Israel rejected him, Jesus said he would take them under his wing, (be married to Israel) but they would not,

so God then made a wedding for his son, the "Gentile" Church, (which were not my people) Just as "divorce" was not so from the begining, but due to the hardness of their hearts, the church became Jesus's Bride due to the hardness of Israel's heart against Jesus.

God would have "PREFERRED" for Israel to be the "light of the world", so Jesus was only sent to them,

Israel was given the opportunity to be the "light of the world", an opportunity that would have materialized except for one thing, "THEY" would not.

God doesn't tempt man with sin and neither does he tempt man with "Righteousness" he can't have either.

Calvin's doctrine runs a lot "deeper" in contradicting scripture that what many realize.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Calvinbaptist:

Romans, chapter 9

"25": As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

How could they be both. They were not His people and then they were His people if they were chosen to not be His before the foundation of the world?

No, they were not His people but they will be His people. Got to get the tenses right. I once was blind but now I see. See?

 

[Brother Bob]

Whatever:

Big difference than being the elect before the world began.

 

[whatever]

Brother Bob,

I guess you don't see. This is a common misconception. Each of those whom God has chosen to be His will become His at some point in his life. Of course it does not mean that he was already saved before he was born, or that he was born believing, or anything like that. Surely you didn't think that was what we believed?

 

[Brother Bob]

whatever:

If it is predestined then what is the difference. He can't do anything but be saved or lost as it was predestinated. That is what you believe isn't it?

 

[4His_glory]

This whole things boils down to how sinnful man really is, though non-Calvinists would admit that they see man as wicked and sinnful, he must not be as sinful in their minds as the Bible claims him to be.

I believe man is so sinnful that there is absolutly nothing he can do to saved himself- including making a choice all by himself of his own will. He must be enabled by God to choose salvation is Christ. Those who are enabled are the elect according to Eph. 1.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
whatever:

If it is predestined then what is the difference. He can't do anything but be saved or lost as it was predestinated. That is what you believe isn't it?

No, not really.

First, if you believe in God has perfect foreknowledge then you would have to answer the same question, because everything that He has forseen (including your belief) will come to pass and nothing can change it, not even you.

Second, as I've pointed out before, predestination does not actually cause any particular thing to happen. If there is blame to be placed then it should be placed on the one who caused the event, not the One Who determined that the event would come to pass.

 

[Helen]

Whatever, I know you will read this post. But I have not caused you to do that. It was your choice.

 

[J.D.]

Whatever will read your post, if indeed he does, because God has given him both the opportunity to do it and the desire to do it, and because of those two things, he will choose to do it.

 

[Helen]

That's not the point. I KNOW he will read it (unless you tell him not to!), and yet I have done NOTHING to cause him to read it. I am trying to make the point that knowing something will happen is entirely different from causing it to happen.

 

[J.D.]

Right, you have done nothing to cause it, so what is the cause? And what is the cause of your certainty of what he will do?

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Helen:
That's not the point. I KNOW he will read it (unless you tell him not to!), and yet I have done NOTHING to cause him to read it. I am trying to make the point that knowing something will happen is entirely different from causing it to happen.

This is self-evident, Helen. I don't think anyone here needs to be told that.

I do think you need to be reminded that you're not God, and what you foreknow doesn't amount to anything.

What God foreknows is altogether different, because He can and DOES direct or permit everything that ever happens, or forbids anything from happening, according to His foreknowledge and His good pleasure. So what God foreknows will come to pass, WILL come to pass, period.

People choose of their own will to do evil. They can only act on their will because God foreknew it and permits it because He plans to use it for His own good pleasure. If for any reason their evil deeds do not fit in with His plans, He does not permit them to happen. NOTHING happens apart from God's will.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
Whatever, I know you will read this post. But I have not caused you to do that. It was your choice.

But you didn't create me so that example is flawed. Let's pick a better example.

Before God created anything He already knew that if He created you then you would post that reply on March 19, 2006 at 12:47 PM. He knew that if He did not create you then you would not post that reply. So once He created you then your destiny regarding that reply was already sealed. There was no chance that what God knew about you and that reply would not come to pass.

Did God cause you to reply?

Was it not your choice?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by whatever:

First, if you believe in God has perfect foreknowledge then you would have to answer the same question, because everything that He has forseen (including your belief) will come to pass and nothing can change it, not even you.

God does have perfect foreknowledge, but why would God repent of something he was about to do, and change his mind??

Ex 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Wouldn't foreknowledge have warned God that he would repent of his intentions,

and "IF" it was "predestine", how could the evil not take place???

Second, as I've pointed out before, predestination does not actually cause any particular thing to happen. If there is blame to be placed then it should be placed on the one who caused the event, not the One Who determined that the event would come to pass.

Right, God determined for Israel to be a "light to the world",

"IF" foreknowledge knew Israel would reject Jesus, "WHY" was he sent "ONLY" to them "ANYWAY"??

My point is that even through God knows what will happen, he still goes through the "motions" of making the "OFFER" so that no blame can be placed on him for not making the "OFFER" even though he knows they will reject it.

This is why Jesus died not only for our sins, but also the sins of the whole world, the "Gift" is "OFFERED" to all, Just like it was offer to Israel, even though God knows some will reject it, so the Condemnation that comes with the rejection, is because of the "CHOICE" they made, not God, it "WAS OFFERED", but rejected by them,

God didn't reject them, and neither does he reject anyone else, Jew/Gentile, he's no respecter of persons.

Of course this offer of the gift to all supports God not willing that any should perish and denies "effectual calling/limited atonement" through/by God's "Sovereign will" or "predestination".

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Wildfire]

If predestination and foreknowledge are the same thing, then Romans 8:29 actually means, "For whom He predestined, He also predestined," or, "For whom He foreknew, He also foreknew." Not much sense there. Clearly, foreknowledge and predestination are separate and distinct matters.

Note that the predestination there mentioned is not an election to salvation, but rather a predestination to be conformed to His likeness.

It's certainly true that if God knows that a thing will happen, then that thing will absolutely happen. That's a much different question from His actually CAUSING that thing to happen or somehow "sealing" that destiny.

1. Scripture tells us in clear language that God -- who is from everlasting to everlasting (i.e., not a part of His creation including time and chronology) -- knew from eternity past what we would choose. This doesn't make Him less sovereign, because it was His choice to offer the gift in the first place, in His sovereign glory.

2. We are then told that, based on His knowledge of our choice ("for whom He foreknew") he predestined us to His likeness. So the "sealed destiny" is the predestination, which is A RESULT OF ... not THE SAME AS ... his foreknowledge.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Wildfire:
If predestination and foreknowledge are the same thing,...

Hello Wildfire,

Nobody said that predestination and foreknowledge are the same thing. The assertion has been made that predestination is equivalent to fatalism. I have merely shown that for this assertion to be valid then foreknowledge must also be equivalent to fatalism.

Your assertion that predestination is based on foreknowledge appears to hinge on interpreting those "whom He foreknew" as "whom He foreknew would believe". What is your justification for adding those words to what Paul wrote? Clearly there is a difference between a) knowing someone and b) knowing something about someone. If Paul meant "b" then why did he say "a"?

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Helen:
If He chose who would become believers then He also chose who would not become believers. He created millions of people for the purpose of sending them to eternal torment. He did not love them. He did not love the whole world. He DID desire that some should perish.

Can't go with that one. It is against what the Bible says.

That was a really good start to the thread and I was starting to understand you for a bit, but this post just throws it all off as far as perception of God.
God has the power to save everyone, even against their will. Is it really anyone's will to suffer eternal damnation? I doubt it. But God will let it happen anyways. Does this mean God hates them, because he chooses to cast them into the lake of fire? And yes, God chooses that. He doesn't have to. Is he responsible for it though? No. Is it really free will for us to be able to choose to burn in horrible torment for the rest of our lives? You're familiar with Sproul. Do you remember him talking about "neutral free will" in the book named "Chosen by God"? I'll wait for your yes or no before I comment about that part.

All men, on their own, are headed for hell. If God in his mercy chooses to spare some, according to his will, (which is based on those that believe) then who are we to argue, or call him unjust if this be the case? Remember your analogy about a horse being offered steak or oats? Isn't that a bit like heaven or hell? Who, knowing the truth, would choose hell? Who can know the truth, unless it is revealed to him? Faith in Christ is a gift, for Christ cannot be proven in any way, it takes faith. Faith comes from God.

Did he create humans for hell? No, he created hell for Satan and his followers. When humans follow Satan, they become one of his followers. Does God know this will happen? Of course.

Now, as far as convincing verses for "Calvinism" go, here is the single most important passage in scripture to me.
What is your belief about this passage? All of the questions besides this one were rhetorical btw, this here is the heart of the matter as far as I'm concerned. This chapter.

Romans 9:14-24 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Helen]

Gina, thank you for your response. I'll open another thread with your Romans 9 passage so we can concentrate on it, so let me address the rest of your post here.

God has the power to save everyone, even against their will. Is it really anyone's will to suffer eternal damnation? I doubt it.

God has offered salvation to everyone but yes, quite a number choose to reject it. Are you telling me you don't know people who prefer a lie that makes them feel comfortable to a truth that makes them feel a little or a lot uncomfortable? I know a LOT of people like that! They are choosing a lie and if they keep going down that path, then the Lie is what they will get, and that path is the path to hell. Maybe they are not consciously choosing hell (although I have also known people who reject God to such a vehement degree that they will tell you they would rather go to hell!), but hell is the destination of the path of the lie.

God does not force Himself on anyone. We are free to accept or reject what He has done for us. It is not a matter of God not loving these people, but of Him letting them finally have their own way. I believe it was C.S. Lewis who wrote that there would come a time when either the person would say to God "Thy will be done," or God would say to the person, "Thy will be done." One or the other, and we have the incredible option of choosing. We can harden our hearts, which many do, or we can 'reason with God' as in Isaiah 1, and come at the thing intellectually (although He will take the truth seeker past that point), or sometimes just reach the end of our respective ropes and scream to Him for help. And He will be there.

God has given us the choice and God respects that choice. The Bible says plainly He does not take pleasure in the death of anyone. He is not willing that ONE should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Nevertheless, He will not violate the free will -- free choice -- He has given each of us. He will respect His gift to us, although it must sadden Him horridly sometimes, I think.

I started "Chosen by God" but never finished it. I never got very far at all, as I recall, because I started looking up passages he referred to and as I remember, I got pretty angry with the way he was taking them out of context.

You ask, "Who, knowing the truth, would choose hell?" Two points here: we seriously do not understand what the concept of hell really means. So I'm not sure ANY of us knows the truth about it, really. The second point is that those who are choosing the lie don't know the truth. They are delusional in the worst way and so don't understand anything except they are rejecting something in their lives that is actually the truth and they are doing it consciously and consistently. Those who pay attention to the truth -- in whatever degree it is presented to them -- and follow it and want it will be led by the Father to the Son, who is the Truth. But those who prefer a lie will eventually be given THE lie and then there is nothing left but hell.

Why does one person prefer one and one person prefer the other? I don't know. Calvinists say it is all of God and men don't really have the choice I am convinced they do. Each man's reasons are his own. A relationship with God is a highly personal thing.

You wrote: Did he create humans for hell? No, he created hell for Satan and his followers. When humans follow Satan, they become one of his followers. Does God know this will happen? Of course.

You realize you have destroyed the Reformed theology with your first two sentences. For if God predestined some and some only for salvation, then He definitely created hell not only for Satan and the angels who followed him, but for all the human beings He did not choose to be saved.

Nor does a person go to hell because he followed Satan. He only has to follow the easy way and reject the truth. Satan may encourage that, but few of us are important enough for Satan's personal attention, I am sure. We seem to do just fine in messing ourselves up without any help whatsoever!

I'll try to start the other thread tomorrow. Or maybe you want to start it with the Romans verses yourself. I'm sleepy now. God bless.

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Wildfire:
So the "sealed destiny" is the predestination, which is A RESULT OF ... not THE SAME AS ... his foreknowledge.

Wow, THAT can turn into a word game, unfortunately!

If he knew it, could anything change it? If nothing could change it, is it still a choice?
Does it matter either way?

 

[gb93433]

The second paragraph in Ephesians 1 is in the ocntext of a prayer. To lift a few verses from the entire context of a prayer is simply to misinterpret what Paul wrote and give words to it which he did not. Read the cointext of that passage. It has absolutely nothing to do with what Calvinists so often proclaim and scripture does not.