Ephesians 1:4-5

[Me4Him]

Calvibaptist

IF Jesus died for and tasted death for all men, then everyone goes to heaven. You are a universalist. You say, "Oh, no, but people go to hell for rejecting Jesus." I ask, is rejecting Jesus a sin? If Jesus died for all sin for all men, then He died for that one too. Your position is unbibilical.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


19 And this is the condemnation, (not sin) that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Scripture, and God, says you and your doctrine is "WRONG".

 

[Helen]

Did I read something earlier that Helen describes herself as a pastor?

Absolutely not.

from Craig: Have you studied every ancient culture on this planet? Out of the several hundred of them that have been studied by cultural anthropologists, can you name just 10 of them that “remember in legend and story the creation and the flood”—or is this just an extravagant exaggeration and a gross distortion of reality?

It has been a field of study of mine for years, Craig, and I think I have studied just about every ANCIENT culture at least somewhat and some a bit thoroughly. I can name far more than ten which remember creation and the Flood, though! But then these lists are also available on the net:

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
http://ragz-international.com/floods.htm
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/40

Very often the creation and flood legends are interwoven. But when we start stripping away mythology and look at the facts of what is being remembered, they can often be untangled.

Here are some other interesting links:
http://www.indians.org/welker/legend.htm
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v7/i2/noah.asp
http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre04legends.html

I've done a lot of my own research as well, but these pages should at least answer the accusation -- or implied accusation -- that I was exaggerating or grossly distorting reality.

 

[Helen]

Calvibaptist

IF Jesus died for and tasted death for all men, then everyone goes to heaven. You are a universalist. You say, "Oh, no, but people go to hell for rejecting Jesus." I ask, is rejecting Jesus a sin? If Jesus died for all sin for all men, then He died for that one too. Your position is unbibilical.

All sin is atoned for. Not all sin is forgiven. Even rejecting Jesus is ATONED for, as not one insult will be left standing in front of God for eternity. All sin has been paid for. Jesus, Hebrews tells us, tasted death for every man. But Jesus says just as clearly that not all sin is forgiven. Rejecting the truth causes God's anger to be poured out (Romans 1). It is what a man does in regard to the truth that is evident to him which determines where his life, and eternity, is headed.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Helen wrote,

It has been a field of study of mine for years, Craig, and I think I have studied just about every ANCIENT culture at least somewhat and some a bit thoroughly. I can name far more than ten which remember creation and the Flood, though! But then these lists are also available on the net:

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
http://ragz-international.com/floods.htm
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/40

Very funny, Helen! When I checked out the first culture in your first link I saw that the culture was the Kurnai people of Australia! Are you familiar with that culture? They do not believe in a world wide flood! They believe in a handed down account of a great Tsunami (probably the tsunami of ca. 1500 A.D.) which specifically says that the people found refuge by climbing up onto a nearby hill!

 

[Helen]

Craig, I have done too much research in this area to be even vaguely disturbed by your characteristic mocking. I simply linked you to pages with a number of legends listed.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:
Craig, I have done too much research in this area to be even vaguely disturbed by your characteristic mocking. I simply linked you to pages with a number of legends listed.

Helen,

I am not trying to disturb you. I am, however, disturbed by websites that pretend to be Christian but whose mission is to deceive the gullible and the uneducated by willfully and deliberately misrepresenting the truth. Such websites do indescribable damage to the Christian faith by making characterizing Christians as cheap liars and deceivers.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:
Craig, I have done too much research in this area to be even vaguely disturbed by your characteristic mocking. I simply linked you to pages with a number of legends listed.

Helen,

I’m sorry, but I messed up my last post. It should have read,

I am not trying to disturb you. I am, however, disturbed by websites that pretend to be Christian but whose mission is to deceive the gullible and the uneducated by willfully and deliberately misrepresenting the truth. Such websites do indescribable damage to the Christian faith by characterizing Christians as cheap liars and deceivers.

Scientific research does not consist of reading deliberately and willfully falsified and fictionalized creationist propaganda on pseudo-Christian creationist websites. Scientific research consists of doing one’s own work of gathering one’s own data and analyzing one’s own data. Yes, researchers do study the data and analyses of other researchers, but that is in addition to their research.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
All sin is atoned for. Not all sin is forgiven. Even rejecting Jesus is ATONED for, as not one insult will be left standing in front of God for eternity. All sin has been paid for.

Then again I ask a very simple question. If all sin is atoned (paid) for, how come God still requires payment in hell? How come there is still a penalty to be paid if the payment has already been made?

 

[Helen]

I was not pretending they were all Christian websites, although some were. And they are definitely additions to my own research.

If you are interested at all, I have some books I strongly recommend which verify what I have stated about the memories of the Flood and Creation, and also of the other catastrophes at the time of Babel and Peleg. Each of these books is here in my own personal library and each has been read by me:

Gods, Goddesses, and Myths of Creation,
Mircea Eliade, Harper and Row, 1967

The Babylonian Genesis, Alexander Heidel, University of Chicago Press, 1942

The Book of Tea, Okakura Kakuzo, Charles E. Tuttle Company, 1956

Ebla Tablets, Secrets of a Forgotten City, Clifford Wilson, Master Books, 1979

Mythology, Edith Hamilton, A Mentor Book, 1942

The Tale of Genji,Murasaki Shikibu, Charles E. Tuttle Company, translated 1976 by Edward G. Seidensticker (2 volumes)

Aboriginal Stories of Australia, A.W. Reed, Reed Books, 1965 (4 volumes)

Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, E.A. Wallis Budge, Dover Publications, 1973

Maya, the Riddle and Rediscovery of a Lost Civilization, Charles Gallenkamp, third revised edition, Viking Press, 1985

Hmong, History of a People, Keith Quincy, Eastern Washington University Press, 1995

The Egyptian Book of the Dead, as translated by Wallis Budge, Dover Publications, 1967

Atlantis in Spain, Elena Maria Whitshaw, Rider and Co., 1928

African Mythology, Jan Knappert, Diamond Books, 1995

The Inca Empire, Thomas C. Patterson, Berg, 1991

The Myths of the North American Indians, Lewis Spence, Dover Publications 1989

Myths from Mesopotamia, Creation, the Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others, translated by Stephanie Dalley. Oxford University Press, 2000 (I also have other translations of Gilgamesh)

Primitive Mythology, the Masks of God, Joseph Campbell, Penguin, 1976

Mysteries of the Ancient Americas, Reader's Digest, 1986

Mythology, The Illustrated Anthology of World Myth and Storytelling, C. Scott Littleton, editor, Thunder Bay Press, 2002

Larousse World Mythology, Pierre Grimal, editor, Gallery Books, 1989

and the entire 17 volume set of "Myth and Mankind" put out by Time Life.

There are others, but that is all the bookshelves I want to dust right now.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
All sin is atoned for. Not all sin is forgiven. Even rejecting Jesus is ATONED for, as not one insult will be left standing in front of God for eternity. All sin has been paid for.

Then again I ask a very simple question. If all sin is atoned (paid) for, how come God still requires payment in hell? How come there is still a penalty to be paid if the payment has already been made? </font>[/QUOTE]Hell is not payment for anything. I would be interested in any biblical reference you have which says hell is payment for anything. Hell is the result, the consequence, of refusing Christ.

The payment for all sin was made by Christ. He did it all.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Helen:
I was not pretending they were all Christian websites, although some were. And they are definitely additions to my own research.

If you are interested at all, I have some books I strongly recommend which verify what I have stated about the memories of the Flood and Creation, and also of the other catastrophes at the time of Babel and Peleg. Each of these books is here in my own personal library and each has been read by me:

Gods, Goddesses, and Myths of Creation,
Mircea Eliade, Harper and Row, 1967

The Babylonian Genesis, Alexander Heidel, University of Chicago Press, 1942

The Book of Tea, Okakura Kakuzo, Charles E. Tuttle Company, 1956

Ebla Tablets, Secrets of a Forgotten City, Clifford Wilson, Master Books, 1979

Mythology, Edith Hamilton, A Mentor Book, 1942

The Tale of Genji,Murasaki Shikibu, Charles E. Tuttle Company, translated 1976 by Edward G. Seidensticker (2 volumes)

Aboriginal Stories of Australia, A.W. Reed, Reed Books, 1965 (4 volumes)

Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, E.A. Wallis Budge, Dover Publications, 1973

Maya, the Riddle and Rediscovery of a Lost Civilization, Charles Gallenkamp, third revised edition, Viking Press, 1985

Hmong, History of a People, Keith Quincy, Eastern Washington University Press, 1995

The Egyptian Book of the Dead, as translated by Wallis Budge, Dover Publications, 1967

Atlantis in Spain, Elena Maria Whitshaw, Rider and Co., 1928

African Mythology, Jan Knappert, Diamond Books, 1995

The Inca Empire, Thomas C. Patterson, Berg, 1991

The Myths of the North American Indians, Lewis Spence, Dover Publications 1989

Myths from Mesopotamia, Creation, the Flood, Gilgamesh, and Others, translated by Stephanie Dalley. Oxford University Press, 2000 (I also have other translations of Gilgamesh)

Primitive Mythology, the Masks of God, Joseph Campbell, Penguin, 1976

Mysteries of the Ancient Americas, Reader's Digest, 1986

Mythology, The Illustrated Anthology of World Myth and Storytelling, C. Scott Littleton, editor, Thunder Bay Press, 2002

Larousse World Mythology, Pierre Grimal, editor, Gallery Books, 1989

and the entire 17 volume set of "Myth and Mankind" put out by Time Life.

There are others, but that is all the bookshelves I want to dust right now.

That is excellent, Helen. Thank you very much!

 

[ituttut]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Me4Him:
How come no one has answer my question from back on about page 5???

If it's only appointed unto to man "ONCE" to die, why does so many suffer a "SECOND DEATH"???

I figure anyone who knows the scriptures well enough to be "Dogmatic" certainly would have much trouble answering the question.

Will this help?

”For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord”, Romans 6:7-11. It looks to me as we died with Jesus Christ on the Cross, and alive forever more, we can now plainly see those that die “without” Christ will suffer that “second death”.

Christian faith, ituttut

Did it help?