Ephesians 1:4

(snort...coca-cola goes up the nose...gag...cough, cough...face turns red) (composes self) More like a handful of isolated sciptures-out-of-context-alone

 

That was not the point. You changed the text of SCripture from "He chose us" to "he chose a condition." Do you not see that?

That is an incorrect belief.

That is demonstrably false since "before the foundation of the world" "us" didn't exist in that sense. We were not "blessed in the heavenilies" before the foundation of the world.

I never claimed that. I said that God chose individuals to be born again believers. THat is what Paul said.

And the choosing predated the "in him," showing yet again that God did not choose people who were already believers.

These verses are completely irrelevant to the point at hand.

That is exactly what Paul is saying ... that before the foundation of the world God chose us to be saved, in him, holy and blameless.

I would love for you to engage the substance of the debate. So far you have denied the substance of the debate by changing the world ("us" ot "condition") and by not dealing with what Paul is actually saying. I have no intent to demonize you. I encourage you to step up the plate.

Not at all.

You could, but you would have to use Scripture to demonstrate the validity of your points. I have done that. Some disagree on some issues out of conscience and that is fine. But you do not have the liberty to simply change what Scripture says.

I have not done as they did.

HOw do you know that? It doesn't exist ... Oh wait, that is another discussion ...

So far, you have changed the text of Scripture (Us to condition); you have denied the omniscience of God that is clearly taugh in SCripture. That is not a "high view" of Scripture. You have decided for some reason that you know better than God. That is unacceptable.

Completely false. I already demonstrated a major error in your interpretation. You simply chagned the verse (from "us" to "condition"). That is a major error. I have also noted a flaw in that you have God choosing something that not even he can know according to your position in another thread. You are very inconsistent. Other's problems have been pointed out as well.

 

Those who are chosen by God to be saved.

In him takes the norma connotation of "in Christ" and is a reference to salvation. That is a commonly used phrase in the NT.

"Before Him" refers to our standing in Christ as believers. In Christ we are holy and blameless because of his righteousness imputed to us. It deals with us both now and then.

Because they are not in the context of election. Eph 1:4 is about how we get that way. God's choice of us from before the foundation of the world is the answer. Neither passage addresses that. You can't just do theology by a concordance (looking for words). You actually have to look at the context of verses. If you want to talk about those, then please start a thread about them.

 

That is what the verse says. God elected us. That makes us the elect. And obviously, they were not "born again believers" at the foundation of the world.

Salvation is when we are "in Christ," yes. But Eph 1:4 is clearly referring to something before that since you are not "chosen in him" after you are in him." YOu are chosen in him before ... and it is what leads you to being "in him."

The evidence can be found in any number of good commentaries complete with argumentation that I won't rehash here. If you are truly interested, study it out. Eph 5 and Col 1 should be accepted, just not in this discussion. It is not about election. It is about something else.

 

IN the interest of clarification, the "us" is born again by the time Paul writes. They were not in the context of God's choosing which was before the foundation of hte world. In the end, you cannot separate the elect from born again believers. They will be co-extensive. Right now, God is working to bring his elect to belief.

No, Go back and read. I said In him takes the norma connotation of "in Christ" and is a reference to salvation. That is a commonly used phrase in the NT. I said just the opposite of what you claimed I said.

I don't know why you would want to do it. I certianly wouldn't want to. Again, you didn't read carefully. What I said about those two passages has nothing to do with the meaning of holy and blameless, but rather with the context not being about election. The specific issue you asked was "when" .. and I answered that.

It may be. You will have to ask someone who thinks you should do that.

What what should be accepted?

 

I don't think I disagree with that. I wouldn't put it that way. Depending on your response, I may have to clarify it.

Because it is what the text says. What other evidence do you need? What is your point?

 

Those who are chosen by God are chosen to be saved ... which is what "in Christ" means. NOt sure what point there is here.

I interpret verses according to context. Yes, I can support with plenty but don't have the time to reproduce it here. IF you are interested, get yourself some commentaries and look it up. "Before him" refers to our standing in Christ before God ... We are holy and blameless because Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us to the praise of hte glory of his grace. We really don't need anything else. Just accept the text for what it says.

What is your point?

 

I am not sure what you are lookign for. I have told you what i believe it means. I have told you how you can learn more. I have stepped up to the plate and delivered the goods. The commentaries are places where you can get a fuller explanation. I haven't seen you defend your understanding of "before him." In fact, I don't even know what your understanding is. NOt that it matters that much to me ... I just haven't seen it.

No, because in eph 1:4 it applies to those whom God chose from before the foundation of the world. Simply thinking through the text should clear that up for you. I am not being evasive at all. I have been clear.

 

This is getting ridiculous. You are asking things I already answerd. "Before him" is defined by Scripture. You asked a specific point about it with respect to election, and then appealed to two passagse that don't deal with election. That isn't the analogy of Scripture.

Secondly, those "in him" are Christians, but in Eph 1:4 is it used with respect to election, that those are election "in him." It is the goal of election that they be "in him." In that specific context, it is used of those who are not yet "In him." Again, I am not sure why that is confusing.

 

Yes, the elect were not "in him" at the foundation of the world. And no, there is no predicament.