Ephesians 1:4

Oh oh PL. Methinks you are getting into big trouble.

Why do you claim this passage says "God chose us TO BE in him" when it days "God chose us in him?" Why do you do that PL?

Do tell PL. Do tell.

 

You continue to claim the passage says God chose us to be in him.

But it just never says that does it PL? It just says "God chose us in him..."

You see PL, to try as you do to have this passage say:

"He chose a particular people in him to be Christians"

...does great violence to the text. Since no one is "in him" until they are a Christian, God could not have been choosing non-Christians "in him" to later become Christians in Christ since they are not yet in Christ before they are Christians in Christ. And this you have admitted. Nobody was in him before they were Christians. And yet you want to believe God chose some people "in him" TO BE Christians. In other words, you want to believe the passage says that God chose some people in him to be IN HIM. It makes absolutely no sense.

That is because the passage so ever simply means:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us born again believers in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us born again believers in him, before the foundation of the world, to be be holy and blameless before him.

What did God choose? Before the foundation of the world, God chose something. He chose that those who are born again believers in Christ Jesus would be holy and blameless before Him. It does not say he was choosing people but was choosing people TO BE something. And those people he was choosing to be something are already born again believers in Christ.

You see PL, the verse says absolutely nothing about God choosing who would become born again believers as you would like to have it. The verse is about what God chose for born again believers in his Son - a condition of being holy and blameless before Him; He chose what born again believers would be in His Son -holy and blameless before Him.

I am sorry PL but now you know the truth. The passage does not indicate who God chose to be Christians. The passage does say the God was choosing a certain condition, that in His Son, Christians would be holy and blameless before Him.

"He chose believers in Christ TO BE holy and blameless before him."

And try as you may, there is absolutely nothing you can do to illustrate my interpretation to be wrong. Jump up and down and turn red in the face. Bang the table and holler and rant and rave. Make all kinds of fallacious appeals but it will not help you. Nothing will work because it is the truth and there is nothing you can do to demonstrate otherwise.

 

PL: Well, whatever ... All I can say is that I hope you will devote time to study of the Word.

What you need to figure out is how God chose "born again believers" from "before the foundation of the world"?

BE: No I don't need to figure out any such thing PL. You are so blinded by your passion to serve your creedal god you can't see. The passage never says God chose born again believers "from the foundation of the world" in the first place. It says that God chose something; He chose that those who are born again believers in His Son would be holy and blameless before Him.

PE: How were there "born again believers" back then?

BE: They weren't PL. Open your eyes.

PL: And how in the world, given your view of God's knowledge of the future, would there be any opportunity for God to choose anyone based on anything?

BE: You don't listen very well do you? God did not choose ANYONE. He chose a condition - that born again believers in Christ WOULD BE something, holy and blameless before him.


PL: That doesn't even make sense. It is internally incoherent.

BE: No it doesn't make any sense PL. So you need to try and keep up with the program here.

PL: The fact is that God chose individuals before the foundation of hte world to salvation. That is explicit in Scripture.

BE: Sorry PL. It's not there and no matter how hard you want it to be there it will not appear.

PL: As an illustration of your tactics, look at your post. You accuse me of changing Scripture (something I didn't do). But you have done just that. On page 1, you said "God chose a condition." That is an explicit denial of the text.

BE: Perhaps you are blind. Choosing something TO BE is to choose a condition my friend. It does not matter if people are involved with the condition being choosed or not.

PL: It says "God chose us." "Us" is not a condition.

BE: God chose us born again believers who are in Christ RIGHT NOW to be something and he chose that this reality would be before the foundation of the world, TO BE holy and blameless before Him.

PL: Then you say, The verse is about what God chose for born again believers in his Son. That is simply untrue. You can read the plain text and see that God didn't choose a "what;" he chose "us." You have kept this tactic up all through this thread. Why? Why not just accept what Scripture says?

BE: Well PL you can deny and pretend that choosing something or someone or anything TO BE is not a condition til you are blue in the face and it will not be so. When you choose TO BE you are choosing a condition.

What is so absurd about your argument is that yourself are arguing that God chose a condition yourself, that He chose people to become Christians. How hypocritical of you.

PL: BTW, I haven't ranted, raved, banged a table, made fallacious appeals, etc. I have spent most of my time laughing ... It has truly made me laugh to read your posts.

BE: You are shamefully trying to demonize because it is getting hot in the kitchen for you.

 

PL: You say: God chose a condition.
Paul says: God chose us.

BE: Why do you find it necessary to keep truncating the passage Larry and continue to ignore the plain fact that the choosing was a choice for something TO BE and the verb TO BE is a existential condition?

The passage says that God chose a condition for US. It says God chose the condition of US being holy and blameless before him. The US is born again believers which no one can reasonably deny in the context of this sentence. They are those who are blessed in the heavenlies. And you also read the verse as if the term "in him" is quite irrelevant to the meaning of the text and would otherwise not even need to be there. YOUR interpretation would have it that Paul might as well have said, "He chose us to be holy and blameless before him." But it doesn't say that does it PL? No, it says "He chose us IN HIM to be holy and blameless before him."

What you can't seem to get through your head is that God did not simply "choose us" but that God "chose us TO BE." And since US is born again believers you have to ask yourself what God chose born again believers TO BE PL?

What did God chose born again believers TO BE?

 

Now you are actually starting to think a little PL. Now let me show you why you are wrong again okay?

Let's see how your interpretation works out okay? You insist that God chose a WHO. Who did God choose? Well the US in this passage is born again believers. That cannot be reasonably denied. So then PL:

YOU SAID:

"God chose us for a condition."

BE: What did God chose born again believers TO BE, PL? You insist that God chose born again believers for a condition. What condition are born again believers chosen for PL?

 

So now you deny that the word US at Ephesians 1:4 is a reference to born again believers?

Let's check this out okay?

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed US with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places IN CHRIST just as He chose US IN HIM before the foundation of the world TO BE...


Seems the US in this passage are those who have already been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies my friend.

That just might be because God...

made us alive together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Sorry PL but your interpretation is ridiculous.

All we need to do is understand four simple things here:

1. US = already born again believers
2. IN HIM = where born again believers are
3. Before creation God chose born again believers TO BE something
4. What God chose is for born again believers to be holy and blameless before him

SIMPLE isn't it?

But I know, I know. It does not please your creed, your god.

 

Sorry PL, but there is no reference in this verse of God choosing people to become born again believers.

Now let us make this very clear for everyone to see:

Is the word US at Ephesians 1:4:

1. Born again believers?
2. The yet unregenerate elect who would be born again believers

Take your pick and see your folly.

 

Let's see if that works Larry.

US = not yet regenerate elect

"God chose [the not yet regenerate elect] in him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him.

Nope, doesn't work does it Larry. People who are not yet regenerate are not "in him" are they?

Also, are you sure you don't want to rethink this statement? "It is impossible to "elect" born again believers in eternity past when there were not people, much less born again people. That is absurd, not to mention unbiblical."

 

It works does it Larry?

I am afraid not. Unregenerate people are not "in Christ."

But born again believers ARE "in him" aren't they PL?

Hopefully you will begin to see the error of your ways Larry.

Getting all red in the face and table pounding won't change anything.

 

This man is not my elder any more than the elders down at the Kingdom Hall johnp.