Ephesians 1 Clarified

[The Archangel]

You really should put your id behind your ego...

"That choice happened at a time in the past--before the foundation of the world. "

Again Calvinist always leave Jesus out, where it says "IN HIM".

Nope. Again, you seem not to be able to grasp that the simple sentence is "He chose us." No one that I know of is suggesting that "in Him" isn't important. "In Him" is, however, a prepositional phrase and serves as the direct object (and "in Him" is also in the dative case). In other words, grammatically, "He chose us" is the point Paul is making.

In this verse, who is it that is chosen? Us... the believers. It is really that simple. That we're chosen "in Christ" which--if you take the dative as the "Instrumental Dative" (or dative of means), Christ is the means by which we are chosen--which is important. But, in no way is Paul saying Christ was chosen in this particular passage.

I'll explain it for you again since you haven't read the thread.

No, I've read the thread. Your arguments aren't compelling because they violate the grammar of the passages. That has not gotten better in what you've posted below.

YOU were NOT ALWAYS IN HIM.

You were SEPARATE FROM JESUS, with no covenant promises, IE NOT CHOSEN or ELECT for salvation, If you were CHOSEN and elect for salvation prior to being IN CHRIST then you would have the HIGHEST HOPE and GOD. Scripture says you had NIETHER.

This makes no rational sense and goes against what the text itself is saying.

Ephesians 1 is talking TO saved folks, And he is telling THOSE SAVED FOLKS, IN CHRIST Have been chosen for what? ----> Chosen to be holy and blameless.

He could have said they were chosen to take out the trash, chosen to eat all the cows, chosen to steer the clouds in heaven.

We read the sentence to see what they are chosen for.....This is called CONTEXT.

As I've already stated, chosen to be holy and blameless is not a problem. But, that only comes through being "In Christ." And, since you are having so much intestinal irritation over "He chose us" and since you seem to think you know context well... why do you skip over προορίζω in v. 5. Clearly the word προορίζω (predestined) is--in a parallel fashion--describing God's choosing "us" in v. 4.

The problem is you have an eisegesis of loading the word CHOSEN, ELECT to ONLY mean CHOSEN for Salvation.

So the next time your buddy CHOSE to eat a Cheeseburger you don't assume he is ELECT of God and heaven bound.

Eisegesis? Me??!! You're the one whose explanation(s) go against the simple grammar of the text itself.

The Archangel

 

[Sai]

But that's exactly what you're doing here. One cannot argue--logically--that Ephesians 1:4 says God chose us after we chose Him. The passage tells us--in simple grammar--"He chose us." Chose is in the middle voice, meaning God chose us for Himself (ie. His own reasons, His own good pleasure, etc.). That choice happened at a time in the past--before the foundation of the world. The language is quite clear. Yes, we were chosen to be holy and blameless, but holy and blameless is something we could never have chosen to be ourselves.

So, Ephesians 1 is really talking about God's initiating intervention in our salvation, not our response to Him.

The Archangel

Not bad kid

 

[utilyan]

You really should put your id behind your ego...



Nope. Again, you seem not to be able to grasp that the simple sentence is "He chose us." No one that I know of is suggesting that "in Him" isn't important. "In Him" is, however, a prepositional phrase and serves as the direct object (and "in Him" is also in the dative case). In other words, grammatically, "He chose us" is the point Paul is making.

In this verse, who is it that is chosen? Us... the believers. It is really that simple. That we're chosen "in Christ" which--if you take the dative as the "Instrumental Dative" (or dative of means), Christ is the means by which we are chosen--which is important. But, in no way is Paul saying Christ was chosen in this particular passage.




No, I've read the thread. Your arguments aren't compelling because they violate the grammar of the passages. That has not gotten better in what you've posted below.



This makes no rational sense and goes against what the text itself is saying.



As I've already stated, chosen to be holy and blameless is not a problem. But, that only comes through being "In Christ." And, since you are having so much intestinal irritation over "He chose us" and since you seem to think you know context well... why do you skip over προορίζω in v. 5. Clearly the word προορίζω (predestined) is--in a parallel fashion--describing God's choosing "us" in v. 4.



Eisegesis? Me??!! You're the one whose explanation(s) go against the simple grammar of the text itself.

The Archangel

"This makes no rational sense and goes against what the text itself is saying."

Ephesians 2

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Text says you were SEPARATED FROM CHRIST. Excluded, had no promise, no hope, no God.

Let me reemphasize 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

13But now in Christ Jesus
13But now in Christ Jesus

That means you were NOT IN CHRIST JESUS. You were FAR OFF.

Too bad, SO SAD, bye bye =)

 

[The Archangel]

"This makes no rational sense and goes against what the text itself is saying."

Ephesians 2

12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Text says you were SEPARATED FROM CHRIST. Excluded, had no promise, no hope, no God.

Let me reemphasize 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

13But now in Christ Jesus
13But now in Christ Jesus

That means you were NOT IN CHRIST JESUS. You were FAR OFF.

Too bad, SO SAD, bye bye =)

You really cannot argue Ephesians 1 by referencing Ephesians 2, especially when you rant and rave about how others use context.

And, since we're talking about context, Ephesians 2:13 is addressing Gentiles having been brought into the relationship with God that the Jews had enjoyed; Ephesians 1 is discussing believers in general.

The Archangel

 

[Aaron]

If it was already a done deal it would be obvious enough for Paul not to have to explain it to saints.

As usual, you appeal to a non sequitur. A "done deal" doesn't mean you don't have to learn and grow. When one is born naturally, it's a "done deal." It is someone's son, someone's heir, high or low estate, a citizen of some nation. A boy or a girl, but that doesn't mean he or she doesn't have to be taught about who he or she is, or how he or she came to be, or his or her purpose is.

More than that, it was a "done deal" apart from any choice or contribution on his or her part. So whose will was it that you were born a first time?

(I have to be careful here, because you are nutty enough to postulate that it was human will that gave you existence.)

But the obvious answer is that it was God's will. You may be the offspring of fornication, or rape. If it isn't God's will that ordained you to come into the world at the place and time and through the circumstances that you did, then God has no individual plan and purpose for your life. No real love for you, personally. (You may be obtuse enough to assert that very thing, but I hope not.)

But because to a CALVINIST it is drilled as a magical word they believe every time the word CHOSEN pops up it means chosen for salvation.

Pretty much any time the word chosen pops up, it is describing something God has set aside for Himself.

But the word "elect" always means God's people, and God's people are saved. They are the elect, the chosen.

 

[Aaron]

"Because I was chosen and adopted before the foundation of the world."

^Notice the part that is always left out....... "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world"

in him.

Why is IN JESUS LEFT OUT?

Because ... blah blah blah blah...

"in Christ" means the same thing as "in Adam"

In Adam you died, because you were in Adam when He died. Being chosen in Christ, means that you were in Christ when He was chosen.

This is something that even many Calvinists need to understand, too. God is not still in the act of creation. Creation was done on the Sixth Day. On the Seventh day God rested. I'm not saying He is not active in his Creation. But He is not "still workin' on me" in the sense of my natural existence. He is not creating. No child being born is a new creation. Any person "coming into the world" today was actually in the world on the Sixth Day, being, by God's design, personally and individually, "in Adam." You're really a very old thing. The Wai Wai tribe of Northern Brazil would call their newborns, a "new old thing."

But now there is a New Creation, in Christ. And in Christ, we have eternal life, meaning no beginning of days, or end of life. We are partakers of His divine nature. And as He was before the foundation of the world, so are we.

 

[utilyan]

Ephesians 1

4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Just as the ARMY chose US Soldiers in it as planned before the foundation of the Military, That we would issued Rifles and Helmets.

Has nothing to do with folks getting enlisted. In the verse speaks about already saved folks are planned out to BEING HOLY AND BLAMELESS

It says absolutely NOTHING about a NON-saved person being granted access to BEING SAVED.

Could you find a line about NON-SAVED person's granted access to being saved? SURE.....NOT HERE not in Ephesians 1.

EPHESIANS 1 is a NO GO. YOU have LOST HERE.