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Ephesians 2:1

Bill Brown

New Member
Allan said:
So then what is all the hype about. God determind before creation there would be some to believe a Calvinistic view and other Not. If God determines as you say then you are just railing against God upon whom He decree would believe as they do. Right?

Ok. admitted - Railing is a strong word, how about arguing against?

Allan, no. The bible clearly teaches that God is sovereign. The choices of the Calvinist and the Arminian are made within God's sovereignty. The fact is that God ordains the choices of both. The Calvinist may be right in his understanding of God's sovereignty and the Arminian is wrong, but neither can escape the sovereign hand of God. The Calvinist receives no glory for being "right." The Father receives all the glory. The fact that God predestined who would believe what does not take man off the hook. God predestined Judas Iscariot to be the son of perdition. Judas freely chose to betray the Lord, but that freedom did not come from a moral free agent. That freedom was actually an act of responsibility. Judas, although predestined, was responsible for his sin. No one can offer an excuse before God. That was Paul's agrument in Romans 9:

Romans 9:19-23 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,


 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Allan said:
So then what is all the hype about. God determind before creation there would be some to believe a Calvinistic view and other Not. If God determines as you say then you are just railing against God upon whom He decree would believe as they do. Right?

Ok. admitted - Railing is a strong word, how about arguing against?

We went over this in the "robot" thread. As we have said above, our chief difficulty is in finding the meeting-point of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. To many say.. for God to assert His sovereignty....for Him to put forth His power and exert a direct influence upon man....for God to do anything more than warn or invite, would be to interfere with man’s freedom...destroy his responsibility... and reduce him to a machine.

This is not what we find in truth Calvinisim. God controls and yet Man has full responsibility. This is clearly seen in nature. We were not ask where we wanted to be born, but still we must follow the laws of the land in which we are. If it be Iran, God placed us there. We are not asked how tall would you like to be, but we must use our tallness or lack thereof, to glory God.

Likewise...Man only has the choices that GOD pleases in front of him. It is God that gives us these choices. Man cannot choose to change his skin color, but man is responsible for telling a lie, for man has a month that he could keep closed.
 

Bill Brown

New Member
our chief difficulty is in finding the meeting-point of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility.
There is no meeting point. To suggest there is creates a give-take relationship, a synergistic relationswhip with God. Man does not have that type of relationship with our Lord. God decrees - man acts - God's will is done and He receives glory. There is no collaboration, either real or implied between God and man. Isaiah infers this when he writes:

Isaiah 55:9 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

There is no meeting of the minds or meeting point. God cannot debase His nature to give up partial sovereignty to His creation. God is always in control and His will is always being done. As finite creatures we cannot fathom this. I make the decision to put gas in my car. You make the decision to eat chicken for dinner. Did we not make those decisions? Yes, we did. Were they within our power to make? Yes, the were. Could God have preordained that these choices be made and still allow us to make them? Of course. But the cart must remain behind the horse. God first decided. Man's action is a result of God's decision.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Bill Brown said:
There is no meeting point. To suggest there is creates a give-take relationship, a synergistic relationswhip with God. Man does not have that type of relationship with our Lord. God decrees - man acts - God's will is done and He receives glory. There is no collaboration, either real or implied between God and man. Isaiah infers this when he writes:

Isaiah 55:9 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

There is no meeting of the minds or meeting point. God cannot debase His nature to give up partial sovereignty to His creation. God is always in control and His will is always being done. As finite creatures we cannot fathom this. I make the decision to put gas in my car. You make the decision to eat chicken for dinner. Did we not make those decisions? Yes, we did. Were they within our power to make? Yes, the were. Could God have preordained that these choices be made and still allow us to make them? Of course. But the cart must remain behind the horse. God first decided. Man's action is a result of God's decision.
Hello Bill,

This will be strange for me, being on this side of the subject. I do not hold to mans freewill. This is nowhere to be found in the Bible. However, we do see man’s responsibility in the Bible. 1st from the negative view..

Romans 9...
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

This verse alone shows God in Control, yet man can and will be held responsible. This is not saying God makes us sin.

A study of Pharaoh proves this. Who made Pharaoh sin? I say...Pharaoh's will made him sin. Who harden Pharaoh's heart? Well, God did. God knew Pharaoh would say no, so he asked Pharaoh to let His people go. Pharaoh had the power within him to say no. But sin controled Pharaoh and God knew his sin would control him. His lust for power made him say no. God didn't make him sin, But God knew he would sin, and God used this sin to bring glory to God.

Pharaoh is still held responsible for his actions for he was not a robot. But he was a slave to his sin..to his lust. God did this over and over to Pharaoh and each time God knew he would say no, and each time after God done something to Pharaoh because he had sinned for saying no.

Also..each time Gods people said...."WOW...check out what God did!! Our God is powerful..and I think God can take us from this place."

Each time God was in control, each time Pharaoh had a choice, each time Pharaoh sinned because of his lust for power, Each time Pharaoh's heart was hardened, each time Gods people grow in their faith, each time Gods name was praised. Now...Only God could make all of this happen at the same time.

Now read what Pink has to say on man's responsibility
Now let it be clearly understood that, when we speak of the sinner’s inability, we do not mean that if men desired to come to Christ they lack the necessary power to carry out their desire. No; the fact is that the sinner’s inability or absence of power is itself due to lack of willingness to come to Christ, and this lack of willingness is the fruit of a depraved heart. It is of first importance that we distinguish between natural inability and moral and spiritual inability. For example, we read, "But Abijah could not see; for his eyes were set by reason of his age" (1 Kings 14:4); and again, "The men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them" (Jonah 1:13). In both of these passages the words "could not" refer to natural inability. But when we read, "And when his brethren saw that their father loved him (Joseph) more than all his brethren, they hated him, and could not speak peaceably unto him" (Gen. 37:4), it is clearly moral inability that is in view. They did not lack the natural ability to "speak peaceably unto him", for they were not dumb. Why then was it that they "could not speak peaceably unto him"? The answer is given in the same verse: it was because "they hated him." Again; in 2 Peter 2:14 we read of a certain class of wicked men "having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin." Here again it is moral inability that is in view. Why is it that these men "cannot cease from sin"? The answer is, Because their eyes were full of adultery. So of Romans 8:8.—"They that are in the flesh cannot please God": here it is spiritual inability. Why is it that the natural man "cannot please God"? Because he is "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18). No man can choose that from which his heart is averse—"O generation of vipers how can ye, being evil, speak good things?" (Matt. 12:34). "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him" (John 6:44). Here again it is moral and spiritual inability which is before us. Why is it the sinner cannot come to Christ unless he is "drawn"? The answer is, Because his wicked heart loves sign and hates Christ.
We trust we have made it clear that the Scriptures distinguish sharply between natural inability and moral and spiritual inability. Surely all can see the difference between the blindness of Bartimeus, who was ardently desirous of receiving his sight, and the Pharisees, whose eyes were closed, "lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted" (Matt. 13:15). But should it be said, The natural man could come to Christ if he wished to do so, we answer, Ah! but in that IF lies the hinge of the whole matter. The inability of the sinner consists of the want of moral power to wish and will so as to actually perform.
What we have contended for above is of first importance. Upon the distinction between the sinner’s natural Ability, and his moral and spiritual Inability, rests his Responsibility. The depravity of the human heart does not destroy man s accountability to God; so far from this being the case the very moral inability of the sinner only serves to increase his guilt. This is easily proven by a reference to the scriptures cited above. We read that Joseph’s brethren "could not speak peaceably unto him," and why? It was because they "hated" Him. But was this moral inability of theirs any excuse? Surely not: in this very moral inability consisted the greatness of their sin. So of those concerning whom it is said, "They cannot cease from sin" (2 Pet. 2:14), and why? Because "their eyes were full of adultery," but that only made their case worse. It was a real fact that they could not cease from sin, yet this did not excuse them—it only made their sin the greater.
Should some sinner here object, I cannot help being born into this world with a depraved heart, and therefore I am not responsible for my moral and spiritual inability which accrue from it, the reply would be, Responsibility and Culpability lie in the indulgence of the depraved propensities, the free indulgence, for God does not force any to sin. Men might pity me, but they certainly would not excuse me if I gave vent to a fiery temper, and then sought to extenuate myself on the ground of having inherited that temper from my parents. Their own common sense is sufficient to guide their judgment in such a case as this. They would argue I was responsible to restrain my temper. Why then cavil against this same principle in the case supposed above? "Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee thou wicked servant" surely applies here! What would the reader say to a man who had robbed him, and who later argued in defence, "I cannot help being a thief, that is my nature"? Surely the reply would be, Then the penitentiary is the proper place for that man. What then shall be said to the one who argues that he cannot help following the bent of his sinful heart? Surely, that the Lake of Fire is where such an one must go. Did ever murderer plead that he hated his victim so much that he could not go near him without slaying him. Would not that only magnify the enormity of his crime! Then what of the one who loves sin so much that he is "at enmity against God"!
The fact of man’s responsibility is almost universally acknowledged. It is inherent in man’s moral nature. It is not only taught in Scripture but witnessed to by the natural conscience. The basis or ground of human responsibility is human ability. What is implied by this general term "ability" must now be defined. Perhaps a concrete example will be more easily grasped by the average reader than an abstract argument.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
I want to add...

One may read this and say..this is not fair to Pharaoh for God to use him like this.

Not so. Pharaoh's was unsaved before this action and also after it. God did not push him into sin, but Pharaoh sinned because he wanted to sin. Therefore, Pharaoh will pay for his sins.
 

Bill Brown

New Member
Arthur,

I never said (or even alluded to) that man does not have responsibility. He most certainly does. Man is commanded to believe and repent. I still hold that man's responsibility is not separate from God's will of decree or intent.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
There is no meeting of the minds or meeting point. God cannot debase His nature to give up partial sovereignty to His creation. God is always in control and His will is always being done. As finite creatures we cannot fathom this.
Does Isaiah 1:18 not say "let us reason together says the Lord"? Sure sounds like "meeting of the minds" to me.
I make the decision to put gas in my car. You make the decision to eat chicken for dinner. Did we not make those decisions? Yes, we did. Were they within our power to make? Yes, the were. Could God have preordained that these choices be made and still allow us to make them? Of course. But the cart must remain behind the horse. God first decided. Man's action is a result of God's decision.
Substitute "putting gas in my car" with "cheating on my wife"...and "eat chicken for dinner" with "getting drunk out of your mind". Do you stil stand by your theory that I have bolded?
 

Bill Brown

New Member
Does Isaiah 1:18 not say "let us reason together says the Lord"? Sure sounds like "meeting of the minds" to me.
If you pay careful attention to the context you will understand that Isaiah is using simile to make a point. Is Yahweh really going to reason with the nation of Israel? Isaiah is using a figure of speech. It is as though Yahweh is saying, "Listen Israel. Your land is desolate. I have turned my back on you and closed my ears to your prayers. Don't you think it is about time you repented of your sins?"

Substitute "putting gas in my car" with "cheating on my wife"...and "eat chicken for dinner" with "getting drunk out of your mind". Do you stil stand by your theory that I have bolded?
.

Yes, without reservation. God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh would become an instrument of God's mercy towards Israel (Romans 9:17). Does this mean God was complicit in Pharaoh's sin? Does this mean that God would be complicit in the sin of a person committing adultery or getting drunk? No. For the scripture says:

James 1:13-15 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

God allows sin according to His sovereign plan, but He does not commit sin. Man is born entirely in sin. Our natural bent is towards sin. We will always seek to sin unless God intervenes to restrain us from sin. That is a completely different discussion for it involves not only soteriology but pneumotology.
 
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webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Your are changing up what you originally said. "Allowed" is not the same things as "God first deciding". You stated man's action is a result of God's decision. This would include sin.

Isaiah 1:18 is a similie? That's honestly the first time I have heard that. You have to eisegete pretty hard to come to that conclusion. It's pretty straight forward.
 

Bill Brown

New Member
webdog said:
Your are changing up what you originally said. "Allowed" is not the same things as "God first deciding". You stated man's action is a result of God's decision. This would include sin.

Isaiah 1:18 is a similie? That's honestly the first time I have heard that. You have to eisegete pretty hard to come to that conclusion. It's pretty straight forward.
I used the word "allow" to distance God from culpability in sin. God does not sin. I could easily have used the word "ordered" or "directed" but I thought 'allowed' was more charitable.

Yes. Simile. Do you know what a simile is? A simile is two opposing ideas used in a single phrase. The opposing ideas? 1. God reasons with man. 2. Man is able to reason with God. A meshing of the finite and infinite. There is no meshing, only the infinite (God) communicating with the finite (man).

By the way, it is exegete not eisegete. You may have been thinking of eisegesis which is not applicable here (hopefully).
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Yes. Simile. Do you know what a simile is? A simile is two opposing ideas used in a single phrase. The opposing ideas? 1. God reasons with man. 2. Man is able to reason with God. A meshing of the finite and infinite. There is no meshing, only the infinite (God) communicating with the finite (man).
I do know what a similie is, thanks.

Simile
SIMILE, n. sim'ily. [L.] In rhetoric, similitude; a comparison of two thing which, however different in other respects, have some strong point or points of resemblance; by which comparison, the character or qualities of a thing are illustrated or presented in an impressive light. Thus, the eloquence of Demosthenes was like a rapid torrent; that of Cicero, like a large stream that glides smoothly along with majestic tranquility.

Maybe it is you that doesn't really know a similie? There are no opposing ideas in "let us reason together", or as the HCSB states "let us discuss this". The simile is found AFTER this statement..."
"Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool.
The text states man can reason with God, and it is not used in a similie format. You state there are no meshing between the infinite and finite? Then I guess there will be no humans in Heaven, huh? If I have the answer to a math question, and I know the mechanics of how the answer is derived, and my son doesn't, he can reason with me as to how I know the answer is correct, and I will try to reason with him why it is so.
By the way, it is exegete not eisegete. You may have been thinking of eisegesis which is not applicable here (hopefully).
Um...no. When you add to the text by calling a non similie phrase a similie, that is eisegesis, my friend...adding your own understanding to the text.
 
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Bill Brown

New Member
webdog said:
I do know what a similie is, thanks.

Simile
SIMILE, n. sim'ily. [L.] In rhetoric, similitude; a comparison of two thing which, however different in other respects, have some strong point or points of resemblance; by which comparison, the character or qualities of a thing are illustrated or presented in an impressive light. Thus, the eloquence of Demosthenes was like a rapid torrent; that of Cicero, like a large stream that glides smoothly along with majestic tranquility.

Maybe it is you that doesn't really know a similie? There are no opposing ideas in "let us reason together", or as the HCSB states "let us discuss this". The simile is found AFTER this statement..."
"Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will be like wool.
The text states man can reason with God, and it is not used in a similie format. You state there are no meshing between the infinite and finite? Then I guess there will be no humans in Heaven, huh? If I have the answer to a math question, and I know the mechanics of how the answer is derived, and my son doesn't, he can reason with me as to how I know the answer is correct, and I will try to reason with him why it is so.

Um...no. When you add to the text by calling a non similie phrase a similie, that is eisegesis, my friend...adding your own understanding to the text.

I've made my points, you've made yours. As always on this topic...no agreement. Let God use the discussion as He wills for His glory.
 
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