Ephesians 2

[agedman]

Oh of course you are always right. Your a Calvinist and all Calvinist are perfect. What a load of dung Self righteousness isn't becoming of anyone . What ever you do don't trip over your pride it can be a stumbling block that even you can't see. You wasted all that space to say something and it ended up being nothing anyway. You keep working at your lordship Salvation.
MB

So, you are giving up?

You really don’t want to learn?

Or is it you resort to demeaning because that is your only defense?

Can you tell the readers about election, predestination, atonement, ...

Use the Scriptures and demonstrate you actually have wisdom in these things that are foundational.

 

[Van]

Well, I tried.

Yet another deflection, misrepresenting the truth.

I did misquote 1 Peter 2:10 saying "lived not as a people" but the actual verse reads for you once were NOT A PEOPLE. There is no way a person could not be a people if they were chosen to be a people.

Ephesians 1:4 must be a corporate election because we all we once not a people. It is a lock.

 

[Dave G]

Did this post address why 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes Ephesians 1:4 from being individual? Nope. Thus a sidestep once again.

We could not live as "not a people" if we had been individually chosen to be His people!

Never mind, Van.

Have a good evening.

 

[MB]

So, you are giving up?

You really don’t want to learn?

Or is it you resort to demeaning because that is your only defense?

Can you tell the readers about election, predestination, atonement, ...

Use the Scriptures and demonstrate you actually have wisdom in these things that are foundational.

I learn everyday it's what you want me to learn that you are concerned about. Everything I've learned about Calvinism is negative

Election as I see it in scripture exist for the Jews. I'm in doubt that it exist for Gentiles for the simple fact there is not one Gentile or group of Gentiles ever mentioned as elect. I know many who have applied it to them selves. No where in scripture is election said to be a requirement for Salvation. No Where in scripture does it every say salvation is only for the elect. Calvinism wishes to make election a guarantee of Salvation. If it were we wouldn't need Salvation.

Predestination I do believe in although I do not agree we are predestined to Salvation. Scripture never says this. It says we are predestined to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. I believe this is true we are all a work in progress. The final transformation will happen when our flesh is redeemed. It Can't happen before this simply because we, {all that means everyone of us} still sin.

The Atonement is not limited to the elect, unless all men are elect.
1Ti 2:3 for this is right and acceptable before God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

It is God's will that all men be saved. That means the atonement is for all men and not just some elect few. I've shown scripture after scripture that states that the atonement is for all men only to hear all Calvinist deny God's holy word says such a thing. You wish to make scripture say something other than what it actually says to support your doctrine.

You complain because I do not take what you say seriously, but how can I when scripture contradicts Calvinism. I do not believe Calvinism is true. You all want me to learn about Calvinism yet I can tell you that I know all that I need to know that Calvinism is false with out doubt. Because of this you accuse me of not being honest some have accused me of not being saved. Accusations are a dime a dozen here. You all believe I just do not understand Calvinism The truth is I do I understand it to be false doctrine. Calvinism is that other doctrine Paul speaks about that he warn is misleading.
MB.

 

[Van]

Never mind, Van.

Have a good evening.

Thanks

 

[Van]

Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election. Who can bring a charge against God's elect? No one, not even Paul, can because it is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33) Therefore the people of Ephesians 2:1 were not elect at that time. Our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we had been "dead in our trespasses and sins."

Ephesians 2:5 demonstrates we were dead in our transgressions when we were made alive together with Christ. If we had been individually chosen and put in Him before the foundation, then we would always been alive and would have never been dead, separated from Him.

 

[Particular]

Never mind, Van.

Have a good evening.

Proverbs gives us wise advise regarding arguing with some people here at the Baptist Board. You show wisdom here, Dave.

 

[Van]

Wisdom dictates addressing the topic and not disparaging those who hold differing views.

Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election. Who can bring a charge against God's elect? No one, not even Paul, can because it is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33) Therefore the people of Ephesians 2:1 were not elect at that time. Our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we had been "dead in our trespasses and sins."

Ephesians 2:5 demonstrates we were dead in our transgressions when we were made alive together with Christ. If we had been individually chosen and put in Him before the foundation, then we would always been alive and would have never been dead, separated from Him.

 

[Van]

Ephesians 2:21
In him the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

In another thread, one of the purposes of the church was said to be to nurture our siblings in Christ. This Ephesians verse reinforces that truth. Here "building" does not refer to a physical construction, but to the structure of the "church" i.e. body of Christ. As we build up, edify, strengthen and encourage one another, the whole assembly moves toward holiness and effectiveness for the Lord. To be part of the structure, of course, we must be "in Him" thus we were set apart in Christ when we were chosen for salvation.

 

[agedman]

Wisdom dictates addressing the topic and not disparaging those who hold differing views.

Now someone bring a mirror for this poster!

 

[agedman]

Ephesians 2:21
In him the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

In another thread, one of the purposes of the church was said to be to nurture our siblings in Christ. This Ephesians verse reinforces that truth. Here "building" does not refer to a physical construction, but to the structure of the "church" i.e. body of Christ. As we build up, edify, strengthen and encourage one another, the whole assembly moves toward holiness and effectiveness for the Lord. To be part of the structure, of course, we must be "in Him" thus we were set apart in Christ when we were chosen for salvation.

Do you neglect “being joined together?”

Which comes first, the building, or that which are the parts that need joined together to form the building.

For a clue, Paul is using architectural terms.

 

[Dave G]

Wisdom dictates addressing the topic and not disparaging those who hold differing views.

I wasn't wasn't trying to disparage anyone, Van.

From my perspective, you're the one who keeps telling me I'm sidestepping things, and then calls my attempts at directly dealing with your explanations from Scripture, "sidestepping", and I quote:

Thus a sidestep once again.

Follow my posts carefully and you will see that I have not sidestepped a thing.

Also, I'm not sure why you think I bear you any ill will, but I don't.
I have no reason to disparage anyone on this board, contrary to what some here have done to me.
But I do see you calling other peoples comments "twaddle" a lot, as well as "sidestepping", "deflection", "obfuscation", etc. when that is not what they are doing.

With that said, what I'd like for you to do is to develop some passages verse by verse so that we can compare how we understand them...
But you keep refusing.

Wisdom and my own personal experience dictates that it is because you choose to avoid, not an argument, but a careful comparison of differing understandings in order to place it all on the table for the readers here to see.
Engineers and scientists do it all the time, comparing their designs and calculations with each others in order to see how things are stacking up.
They don't do it to tear each other down, but as collaborative effort.

My motivation is a bit less "team-building" and a bit more "seeking clarity":

What I'd like to see is you laying out a few key passages in your own words so that I can truly understand your position.
Frankly, what you present about election and a few other subjects, sort of confuses me a bit at times.


So, help me to clear things up, OK?

 

[Dave G]

I'm in doubt that it exist for Gentiles for the simple fact there is not one Gentile or group of Gentiles ever mentioned as elect.

The Romans were:
" What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth." ( Romans 8:31-33 ).



The Thessalonians were:
" knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." ( 1 Thessalonians 1:4 ).

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )



The "strangers" ( "Gentiles", please see the epistle to the Galatians, who were Gentiles, not Jews ):
" Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:" ( 1 Peter 1:1-2 ).

In his second letter, he addresses all believers, Jew and Gentile alike by including them in the phrase:
" Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" ( 2 Peter 2:1 ).
Going down to verse 10 we see this:
" Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" ( 2 Peter 1:10 ).



The Collosians, who were Gentiles, not Jews:
" Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye." ( Colossians 3:12-13 ).



The Ephesians were chosen ( elected ) "in Him":
" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" ( Ephesians 1:4 )


Almost all of the epistles label the believers in those places as either chosen, "called" or outright describes them as "elect", MB.

No Where in scripture does it every say salvation is only for the elect.

Nowhere in Scripture is the believer ever described as not elect.

The "whosoever believeth" are God's elect.
There is no such thing as a "non-elect" believer, MB.

 

[Dave G]

Calvinism is that other doctrine Paul speaks about that he warn is misleading.

Are you referring to this passage?

" But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."?" ( 2 Corinthians 11:31 ).

The simplicity in Christ is that salvation is "of the Lord" ( Psalms 3:8, Psalms 20:6, Psalms 28:8, Psalms 37:39, Psalms 62:1, Jonah 2:9 ) each and every facet of it.
Start To finish.
Election is what makes it entirely of God, beginning to end.

Simple, straightforward and clear...

He is the Saviour, and His sheep are the recipients of that salvation ( John 17:2 ).
He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End ( Revelation 1:11, Revelation 21:6 ).
He is the Author and Finisher of the believer's faith ( Hebrews 12:2 ).

Our faith doesn't help Him to save us...
It is the evidence of that salvation ( Hebrews 11:1 ).

There is no greater simplicity than that salvation is entirely of God, MB.
The simplicity that is in Christ is in the details of Scripture...

The details describe a salvation that is truly "of the Lord", lock, stock and barrel.
Election is what makes it all of grace, and none of works, and it completely bypasses man's selfish efforts to gain favor with God.

That is the simplicity that Paul was warning believers about...
Adding our works, of any kind, to His Gospel.


May God bless you sir.

 

[Van]

I wasn't wasn't trying to disparage anyone, Van.
SNIP
So, help me to clear things up, OK?

Wisdom dictates addressing the topic and not disparaging those who hold differing views.
Did I say you were disparaging anyone? Nope So yet another deflection from the topic.

Repeating my view:
Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election. Who can bring a charge against God's elect? No one, not even Paul, can because it is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33) Therefore the people of Ephesians 2:1 were not elect at that time. Our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we had been "dead in our trespasses and sins."

Ephesians 2:5 demonstrates we were dead in our transgressions when we were made alive together with Christ. If we had been individually chosen and put in Him before the foundation, then we would always been alive and would have never been dead, separated from Him.

Please reference your post # that addresses this topic!

 

[Van]

Do you neglect “being joined together?”
Which comes first, the building, or that which are the parts that need joined together to form the building.
For a clue, Paul is using architectural terms.

Yet another nonsensical post, finding fault where none exists. Does anyone actually believe we as members of the body of Christ are not joined to Christ? We are in Him and He is in us.

 

[Dave G]

Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election.

I disagree.

Ephesians 1:4-5 demonstrates that Ephesians 2:1-10 refers to an individual election, as all who were chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world, are now being addressed in the next chapter.
They are now being told parts of the "why" and "how" of their salvation.

Who can bring a charge against God's elect? No one, not even Paul, can because it is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33)

Amen.

Therefore the people of Ephesians 2:1 were not elect at that time.

They are the same people being addressed in Ephesians 1.
They were chosen "in Him" ( elect ) before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ), not in time.

Our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we had been "dead in our trespasses and sins."

Again I disagree, Van.

According to the prior chapter, the Ephesians were individually elected before the foundation of the world.
In Ephesians 2, the chapter describes how that God raised us when He raised Christ.
When He sat Christ in the Heavenlies, we were seated with Him...
So that in the ages to come He might show us the riches of His grace through Jesus Christ.

This is my last reply in this thread.

I wish you well, sir.

 

[Van]

According to the rational presented in post #57, a charge of being dead in sin can be made against God's elect. But Romans 8:33 precludes making a charge against God's elect.

Was this difficulty addressed? Nope.

Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election. Who can bring a charge against God's elect? No one, not even Paul, can because it is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33) Therefore the people of Ephesians 2:1 were not elect at that time. Our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we had been "dead in our trespasses and sins."

Ephesians 2:5 demonstrates we were dead in our transgressions when we were made alive together with Christ. If we had been individually chosen and put in Him before the foundation, then we would always been alive and would have never been dead, separated from Him.

1 Peter 2:10 demonstrates we once were not a people and once had not received mercy, but now we are a people of God and have received mercy. Therefore our election (chosen to be a people for God's own possession) occurred during our lifetime after we had lived without mercy and were not a people.

 

[agedman]

According to the rational presented in post #57, a charge of being dead in sin can be made against God's elect. But Romans 8:33 precludes making a charge against God's elect.

Was this difficulty addressed? Nope.

Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election. Who can bring a charge against God's elect? No one, not even Paul, can because it is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33) Therefore the people of Ephesians 2:1 were not elect at that time. Our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we had been "dead in our trespasses and sins."

Ephesians 2:5 demonstrates we were dead in our transgressions when we were made alive together with Christ. If we had been individually chosen and put in Him before the foundation, then we would always been alive and would have never been dead, separated from Him.

1 Peter 2:10 demonstrates we once were not a people and once had not received mercy, but now we are a people of God and have received mercy. Therefore our election (chosen to be a people for God's own possession) occurred during our lifetime after we had lived without mercy and were not a people.

Van, your repeating error does not present the error as valid.

Many others have made outstanding presentations of the truth in which you reject.

I’m surprised that your not exhausted.

 

[Van]

Van, your repeating error does not present the error as valid.

Many others have made outstanding presentations of the truth in which you reject.

I’m surprised that your not exhausted.

Yet another deflection, addressing me to change the subject. What a waste of electrons.

Was this difficulty addressed? Nope.

Ephesians 2:1 demonstrates that Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate election rather than an individual (or foreseen individual) election. Who can bring a charge against God's elect? No one, not even Paul, can because it is God who justifies. (Romans 8:33) Therefore the people of Ephesians 2:1 were not elect at that time. Our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime after we had been "dead in our trespasses and sins."

Ephesians 2:5 demonstrates we were dead in our transgressions when we were made alive together with Christ. If we had been individually chosen and put in Him before the foundation, then we would always been alive and would have never been dead, separated from Him.

1 Peter 2:10 demonstrates we once were not a people and once had not received mercy, but now we are a people of God and have received mercy. Therefore our election (chosen to be a people for God's own possession) occurred during our lifetime after we had lived without mercy and were not a people.

Folks, the question is how many lines of evidence must be presented before the truth of scripture will be accepted?