Originally posted by ascund:
Greetings
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally quoted by Scott J.
I never said that "it is crammed down your throat", did I?
Not technically.</font>[/QUOTE] No. I didn't say it at all. The only attempt to cram anything down anyone's throat is those words you keep trying to stuff into my mouth.
What do you call it when you force your good intentions upon someone else? Whatever word you eventually choose, it isn’t grace.
Did Jesus "force" His good intentions on Lazarus who was physically dead? Apply your answer to the spiritually dead that are regenerated by the Holy Spirit.
Making God the source of regeneration before faith also makes God the source of UNregeneration.
Non sequitur. You make that assumption based on your biases.
Man is spiritually dead because of imputed sin just like Romans 5 declares.
It is a natural implication that you Calvinists somehow cannot see.
Whatever you think a "natural implication" is... It doesn't follow that just because someone is regenerated by God physically or spiritually that He is somehow responsible for their death.
Maybe I should back up. Just what are you referring to as "UN"regeneration? I have never seen that term in the Bible... or anywhere else for that matter.
Moreover, if God has decreed everything, then we are but automatons following a well-devised script.
I never said that God decreed everything. Hyper calvinists believe this. Biblical calvinists do not.
For instance, God is not the author of sin. He allowed it but He did not cause it unless you want to argue the extreme abstract (which I guess isn't all that extreme for an arminian) that because God created knowing that it would happen that makes Him responsible for it happening.
Satan is sitting in the bleachers for God is now the dictator of all actions – even sin.
Man has free will- except that his will is in bondage being dead in his sin. Regeneration frees man from that bondage.
I am not saying that we have no free will. I am saying that man will never of his own goodness use that free will to reconcile himself to God. We require the miracle of regeneration to live spiritually every bit as much as Lazarus needed the miracle of regeneration to live physically.
But here, you rhetorically run to “God is not the author of sin” as if this quote makes your system right. It actually exposes your blindness for you say “YES” and “NO” in the same breath and don’t know it.
That's laughable. I have not said "YES" AND "NO" in the same breath. I have simply accepted and reconciled these things that scripture has to say on the subject.
God did not cause men to die. God did cause men to live. I hope we can both agree to this?
No. He frees and regenerates.
He doesn’t dictate who will be saved.
No. He elects, chooses, predestines, and foreknows who will be saved... at least that's what the Bible says.
He doesn’t dictate who will be damned.
Right. If all are damned and it is their fault and He saves some... the others are still damned and it is STILL THEIR FAULT.
The saved ones still deserve to be damned but by the grace of God they are not. Under your system, the saved ones had some measure of goodness within that caused them to believe... therefore they don't deserve to be damned anymore and they were saved because God recognized the merit of their choice.
He doesn’t dictate your next thought.
No. But He does know and allow our next thoughts.
Your views are derived from a violent abuse of linguistics that wrongly uses God’s election of national Israel and applies it to individuals. Big wrong.
No it doesn't. That is far fetched. Romans 8 for example has nothing to do with the national election of Israel. Neither does Ephesians 1. Neither does John 1:13 or 1 Peter 1:2 or many other scriptures that either declare or imply God's election and means of securing His chosen.
It is only ignorance when you are shown the error and refuse to see it.
You aren't showing me any errors. You are doing little more than declaring me wrong, setting up straw men arguments, then demanding that I agree with you.
Sorry. But you are going to have to put a real case together.
And BTW, if you want to convince me, you are still going to have to answer my question. Why do some believe while others don't? What about them? Where did the goodness to believe come from?
Or is "ignorance" being to kind?
Lloyd
It is interesting that this sort of tactic is employed so frequently by non-calvinists when they can't prove their case from scripture.
I may be wrong. I am certainly fallible. But I am not ignorant and I am giving my honest reasons for believing as I do. Your tactics, while they may make you feel superior, have done nothing to refute my position.
You can drop the non-sense and actually attempt to answer my points or you can continue to undermine your own position by such arrogant statements.
