Esau I HATED!!!!!

[BobRyan]

Malachi 1

I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

1:3
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

1:4
Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Originally posted by philg:

Clearly nations are in view

Clearly you are correct.

But why not just ignore the exegesis that would lead to such a sound conclusion?

Why not just "pretend" that this was a statement made TO Rebekah IN Malachi 1!!??

I mean "pretending" would then be such a great way of defending Calvinism wouldn't it?

Hard to pass up.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by timothy27:
I find it amazing that Bob claims we do not read the text yet he is blind to what the text says.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ScottJ
Bob realizes that he can't allow the texts to say what they say and maintain his view. So when the text disagrees with his view then it must not mean what it means because... his opinion could not possibly be wrong.

Why do you continually argue that proper exegesis of Malachi 1 is "a bad thing" all for the sake of Calvinism?

Why do you continually argue that Romans 9 says Rebekah is told that God hated Esau when God was speaking in Malachi 1?

Why continually pretend that "Edom" is not the subject of Malach 1?

Why continually "pretend" and then argue that those false pretenses should have been accepted by Arminians as "proof" of something!!

Such shoddy logic could NEVER persuade ANY group that did not ALREADY agree with you.

Obviously!

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

Try this for size Bob boy.

Gen 27:6 Rebekah said to her son Jacob, "Look, I overheard your father say to your brother Esau, 7 `Bring me some game and prepare me some tasty food to eat, so that I may give you my blessing in the presence of the LORD before I die.' 8 Now, my son, listen carefully and do what I tell you: 9 Go out to the flock and bring me two choice young goats, so I can prepare some tasty food for your father, just the way he likes it. 10 Then take it to your father to eat, so that he may give you his blessing before he dies."

It is written: Jacob she loved Esau she hated. That's cool that is.

john.

 

[BobRyan]

When you need to "make stuff up" no better sourse than JohnP I always say!

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

That's was classy that was. Genesis 27:6-10. So good I'll say it again.

It is written: Jacob she loved Esau she hated.


john.

 

[BobRyan]

JohnP conducts "Bible spinning 101" for all to see in that last post!

Read and learn Calvinists! This is how it is done!

And also a note to Arminians - when the devastating point is highlighted that there is "an inconvenient fact" in Genesis where we find God NOT saying that He hated the infant Esau (as Calvinists had so HOPED to spin) the response is to "misdirect and rabbit-trail" as JohnP is doing now.

How "instructive" that such tactics would be employed by Calvinism when it must "defend in a vaccuum" of data - having nothing to back up its speculative assertions.

The facts remain.

#1. Malachi 1 is not in the book of Genesis.

#2. Malachi 1 EXPCLICITY shows itself to speak of Edom as the NATION.

#3. Romans 9 DOES NOT say God tolk Rebekah that He hated her infant son.

These facts are impossible to effectively ignore - obfuscate, misdirect... etc (the usual games of JohnP) --

So what does he try next?? Jokes!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

These facts are impossible to effectively ignore - obfuscate, misdirect... etc (the usual games of JohnP) --

(He loves me really .)

Paul is the thorn in your flesh Bobby not mine.

Jesus hates Esau this I know because Paul through Romans told me so. HaHa!

It is written: Jacob she loved Esau she hated. Genesis 27:6-10. You lose again.

john.

 

[BobRyan]

The facts remain.

#1. Malachi 1 is not in the book of Genesis.

#2. Malachi 1 EXPCLICITY shows itself to speak of Edom as the NATION.

#3. Romans 9 DOES NOT say God told Rebekah that He hated her infant son. NEITHER does Genesis say Rebekah hated Esau!

These facts are impossible to effectively ignore - obfuscate, misdirect... etc (the usual games of JohnP) --

So what does he try next?? Jokes!

 

[johnp.]

Anyone:

Why did God predestine Arminians?

john.

 

[timothy27]

Bob once again you miss the point. Yes Malachi is speaking of nations, but you cannot seperate the fact that the nation of Edom decended from Esau, and the nation of Israel descended from Jacob. You cannot seperate one from the other, the fact that two individual people are named is just as important as who those individual people represent. If it was not then specific names would not have been mentioned. And the text in MAlachi 1 clearly shows that one was hated and the other was not. You can not even try to argue that this is not true.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by timothy27:
Bob once again you miss the point. Yes Malachi is speaking of nations, but you cannot seperate the fact that the nation of Edom decended from Esau, and the nation of Israel descended from Jacob.

Jacob was faithful to God yet Manasseh was the most evil king known to Israel. Some kings served God while others sacrificed children to false Gods.

"They are not ALL Jacob" literally NOR does God relate to JACOB the PERSON as He would to wicked king Herod Jacob's descendant.

AS WAS SHOWN In the DETAILS of the post on Edom and Israel - God often symbolized the NATION in the name of its founder. But this does not mean that the founder had the same salvation experience as ALL the members of the nation for centuries to follow.

Far from it!

You cannot seperate one from the other,

Yes you can.

Isaac had TWO children to feed and TWO children to house - not a MILLION AND TWO!

Obviously!

the fact that two individual people are named is just as important as who those individual people represent.

This is classic "eisegesis" to take a snippet of the text and then try to RETRO INSERT a conversation in Malach 1 BACK INTO GENESIS!

The tortured treatement of scripture that Calvinism attempts in Malach 1 is "beyond reason" and the worst possible form of eisegesis.

If it was not then specific names would not have been mentioned.

Again - this is totally bogus. There are times when Israel (which is Jacob's name) as a nation is mentioned as being good and under God's loving care - and other times "as hated" as in the case of Ephraim. This DOES NOT MEAN that God hated Jacob!!

Of course you already knew that - but you are trying so earnestly to twist the text to your usages that it seems you will go to any extreme.

And the text in MAlachi 1 clearly shows that one was hated and the other was not. You can not even try to argue that this is not true. [/QB]

Again - eisegesis BEYOND belief is to IGNORE the national context for Malachi 1 and "pretend" that God was talking about two individuals long dead.

NOtice that in God's PROOF for His Love and hatred HE DOES NOT mention anyting done to Jacob OR Esau. RATHER He mentions ONLY the events of the NATIONS being CALLED by the names of their founders!

This is IMPOSSIBLE to simply ignore that you can eisegete Malachi 1 BACK into Genesis!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Rv:2:6: But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

 

[johnp.]

Try this for size again Bob boy.

Gen 27:6 Rebekah said to her son Jacob, "Look, I overheard your father say to your brother Esau, 7 `Bring me some game and prepare me some tasty food to eat, so that I may give you my blessing in the presence of the LORD before I die.' 8 Now, my son, listen carefully and do what I tell you: 9 Go out to the flock and bring me two choice young goats, so I can prepare some tasty food for your father, just the way he likes it. 10 Then take it to your father to eat, so that he may give you his blessing before he dies."

It is written: Jacob she loved Esau she hated. That's cool that is.

When you need to "make stuff up" no better sourse than JohnP I always say!

Bob likes to think I make things up but my source is scripture and he refuses to answer questions but spout he can and spout he does. ...she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Romans 9:12-13.

Blows your rubbish away Bob. What a wicked God! Telling a mother that one of her children is hated before he was born.

john.

 

[BobRyan]

From the book of JohnP we read

It is written: Jacob she loved Esau she hated. That's cool that is.

Always nice to see some mythology and joking tossed in "to make the case for Calvinism".

And who can we trust to do it? -- JohnP!!

I love it!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Rv:2:6: But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Good point.

It is the SIN that God hates.

For God says that ALL HIS COMPASSIONS are stirred up over the lost!!

And as Calvinists have pointed out in the past - that is not the kind of God they like to serve.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.


For God says that ALL HIS COMPASSIONS are stirred up over the lost!!

So Bob stumbles over a truth. "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, `Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. Luke 15:4-7.


She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

His people not all people are His sheep.

JN 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

It is written: Jacob she loved but Esau she hated. That's cool that is. Read it and weep.

john.

 

[BobRyan]

Did I forget to post God's Word on this subject of LOVInG the lOST??

(I suppose I COULD have made up som silly mythical text about Rebekeh "HATING and LOVING" instead of posting scripture... but you know me -- I just HAD to post God's word INSTEAD)

In 1Cor 2:16 – we are told that we have been given “the Mind of Christ”. What then is the Mind of Christ regarding love for the lost?

When the “impartial (Rom 2:11) unchanging (Mal 3:6) God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation just as He loves the saved and ministers to them, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11
:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!

Prov 24:17Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
18Or the LORD will see it and be displeased,

quote:
________________________________________
1John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.


Enjoy!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

In 1Cor 2:16 – we are told that we have been given “the Mind of Christ”. What then is the Mind of Christ regarding love for the lost?

Not all men have the mind of Christ only His Body has the mind of Christ.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Sweet weeping Jesus meek and mild is sounding less like a Rock and more like dough. Pillsbury comes to mind.

How often I wanted to gather your children...

But you would not. Read it again.

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

My God is so big, so strong and so mighty theres nothing that He cannot do.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matt 1:21.
His chosen people He came to save and save them He did, with rejoicing He did. I am His and He is mine and there ain't no way He will lose one of His sheep is there now silly legs, He is The Good Shepherd not the Useless Shepherd!

God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!

I see no reason to rejoice over the death of anyone but I glory to God it wasn't me. It could have been me going there but I was given mercy. That's why I don't give up on you but I keep talking because I know what I have missed He showed me.
But I notice you do not engage with me but shout loud and hard so you end up on top talking down. I told you months ago not rush like you do, take your time you make some good points every now and then that could be fruitful.

In love we should discuss you win nothing with your bluster tactics.

john.

 

[BobRyan]

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

See God's heart for the lost! See Christ's heart for the lost?!!

In 1Cor 2:16 – we are told that we have been given that same “the Mind of Christ” for the lost.

Contrast that with JohnP's blasphemy -

JohnP said
Sweet weeping Jesus meek and mild is sounding less like a Rock and more like dough. Pillsbury comes to mind.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1576/15.html#000217

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11
:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Contrast again - that compassion for the lost -- as compared to JohhP's blasphemy

JohnP said --
Sweet weeping Jesus meek and mild is sounding less like a Rock and more like dough. Pillsbury comes to mind.

Yet of the saints we find that THEY have been given "the mind of Christ" 1Cor 2:16

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

God asks "DO I HAVE ANY pleasure in the death of the wicked" in the above text.

JohnP and Johnathan Edwards shout YES YES! No matter WHAT the text says! EVEN in the face of whatching their own precious child writhing in agony in the flames - they anticipate JOY and rejoicing where the TEXT shows God showing COMPASSION and CARE!

What a contrast!!


God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!

Prov 24:17Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
18Or the LORD will see it and be displeased,

quote:
________________________________________
1John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[BobRyan]

Notice that when JohnP reads the above - scripture after scripture condemning his own hatred for the lost -- he calls it all "bluster attacks"?!!

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1576/15.html#000217


How instructive.

YET the Bible says of the saints "WE" have been given "THE MIND OF CHRIST" 1Cor 2:16

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob