Eschatology...

[Darrell C]

Paul is addressing the concern of believers. I call your attention to Verses 13 and 18 below. There is no need for Paul to address the resurrection of the unbeliever!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

What is different, OR, is that when resurrection was taught in the past, prior to what we believe to be previously unrevealed truth, or mystery, is that both groups are mentioned. We see that here:



Daniel 12:1-2

King James Version (KJV)


12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


So if the argument offered here is valid, why does Paul not mention the destruction of the wicked also?

Well, one primary reason is that through New Testament revelation we see teaching concerning resurrection not previously revealed. Namely...not all shall sleep, or, die.



1 Corinthians 15:50-51

King James Version (KJV)


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Paul first makes the point that in our physical bodies, we cannot enter the spiritual abode of God. This is something to keep in mind when looking at passages concerning the Kingdom of God, meaning, this speaks of a Kingdom beyond the Kingdom we generally acknowledge as the reign and rule of God in the hearts of men.

This prefaces the next statement:


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


Again I would agree with you that in view the audience are believers, however, it is better to say that the event itself involves born-again believers, rather than one trying to say, as they do with Hebrews, that the audience are all saved (and this point, OR, is just an aside, it has nothing to do with our discussion, past or present).

The MYSTERY here is that...not all believers are going to die. There will be a time when glorification will take place for those that are still physically allive.

In Revelation 20...all are dead. Some are raised, some are not. We do not see a general resurrection mentioned in either case. And while I will agree it is completely reasonable to see this as simply not mentioning the resurrection of the wicked, I have to reject this based upon the fact that we have a resurrection in Revelation 11, another in Revelation 20 concerinng believers (Tribulation Martyrs), and a thousand year time-frame (and a period of time despite how long one makes "a thousand years to be") between one resurrection (of the just) and the other (of the dead).

Which leads one to a more reasonable view that there are multiple resurrections, the resurrection of the Just being of the same type and qualitatively different from that of the dead.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Then this first resurrection could not be the So-Called Pre-Trib Rapture could it?

No, it could not be.

For it is evident that this resurrection takes place at the end of the Tribulation.

Not really! A second resurrection is not even mentioned.

This is in response to this...

We see clearly two resurrections between the thousand year period, a period that many of us see to be a fulfilment of God's promise for a restored Kingdom for Israel.

...and I have to apologize: I did not mean to say "these two were between the thousand years," lol.

Sorry, that just happens sometimes. But I think you knew what I meant, based upon my position, which is that we see a resurrection on either end of this thousand years.

That a "second resurrection" is mentioned is plain in the text, we see that here:


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Whne the "until" is accomplished, the "dead" live again as well.

A second death is though.

Which makes this, in my mind, clearly to be distinguished from the catching away taught by Paul, as all here are...dead. This is a significant point.

The second death is a reference to the death that follows physical death. Like the term first resurrection, it refers specifically to separation in the resurrected body for the wicked. And while among the Just there will be those that will die physically, it is equally true that there will be those that do not.

And they are not seen here...only the dead.

As I indicated earlier many amillennialists believe the first resurrection is a spiritual resurrection as indicated in John 5:25.

Look, I believe the New Birth is a spiritual resurrection, for man is dead spiritually before this takes place.

However, such reasoning can be, I believe (you judge), dismissed as if we include the spiritual resurrection which is the New Birth, then we have not the second death in view...but the third: Man dies in Adam (#1); man dies physically (#2); lost man dies in the Great White Throne judgment (#3).

In view is physical and spiritual death, and since man that is natural is already spiritually dead, to say that this refers to spiritual death, rather than his confinement to eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire...would be to suggest that these that are called dead, who most of us would concede are lost souls, have been regenerated and spiritually die a second time.

Now while those that teach loss of salvation might be glad to consider this as justification for their doctrine, until they took the time to consider that would also mean that all men are regenerated (and this would have to be the case for this to be true, lol), I think it highly unlikely that you would support such reasoning.

Note-I am breaking this up because this forum has a habit of logging me out at innapropriate times, lol.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I did not realize you were of that persuasion.

And you were right: the First Resurrection is not a spiritual resurrection but a bodily resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.

My persuasion is that the wicked are consigned to hades until the Great White Throne judgment. The Church is caught up prior to the Tribulation, and at the end of the Tribulation we see the wicked in totality destroyed leaving only the Just, those that come to saving faith in Christ, to enter the Kingdom promised of God throughout the Old Testament.

Beginning with promise to Abraham.

We can see spiritual application which was withheld to Old Testament saints in that the Rest promised of God certainly speaks of Rest in Christ, or, salvation in Christ, culminating in it's complete fulfillment in the eternal state.

Just as we see partial fulfillment in the Coming of Christ with the Lord's coming though no mention of His ascension and Return, even so I believe we can apply a spiritual application to the reign and rule, and the Rest which was promised, to our current age. However, there will be progressive fuflillment for several of these promises even as we see progressive fulfillment even in our salvation itself. I think you would agree that we are saved now, yet we await the redemption of our bodies, thus establishing that while we are saved, we yet await our salvation to see its fulfillment in entirety in the glorified body.

As I requested earlier can you present Scripture to justify a resurrection prior to that of Jesus Christ?

See the previous post. The scripture cannot be disputed to establish that there were resurrections prior to that of the Lord, though again I would emphacize that the Lord's is the first unto glorification.

Then this first resurrection could not be the So-Called Pre-Trib Rapture could it?

Again, no. But the response was directed at trying to make the Lord's resurrection to be THE First Resurrection, not a first resurrection, meaing the first being the type, not the time.

Which is an irresponsible exposition of this passage.

I have not indicated that any were resurrected other than Jesus Christ.

The response dealt with the statement as a whole.

You said:

Consider that the First Resurrection, that of Jesus Christ, has already occurred.

Here you make the First Resurrection to be the Lord's resurrection. This is incorrect. Revelation 20 does not place the Lord's resurrection in view, but that of Tribulation Martyrs. In Revelation 19 we see the Return of the Lord...not His resurrection.

Obviously Saints, deceased or otherwise, have undergone spiritual resurrection.

I agree, but what does this have to do with the passage in view? What does it have to do with the topic at hand?

As I said before, if we include spiritual resurrection, then even the Just would have "died twice," which means that the second death would be the physical death, making consignment to Hell...the third death.

Now we could make this apply only to death in Adam and the Lake of Fire, and it that way it would be reasonable. But in view is physical death, the context seems to me to be clear. The Second death does not take place until the dead are raised and judged, again pointing to a "physical" death, insomuch as they receive bodies like unto the bodies saints receive, which are suited for an eternal existance. The former for eternal separation, the latter eternal existance with God.

And the interesting note is that a time-frame for "reigning and ruling with Christ" is given, making it unreasonable to dismiss this as a specific time-frame or period because when we speak in generalities, eternal life is always spoken of as...eternal, not for a specific time.

As I note routinely Jesus Christ is the first bodily resurrection.

And while perhaps not for the same reason, I agree with this statement from the perspective of "raised to never die again."

A second resurrection of ALL the dead shall occur at the return of Jesus Christ.

Just not possible. The Two witnesses are raised before this.

Not only that, but consider that immediately after the First Resurrection we are told:


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


No matter how much one wishes to deny that there is a period after the First Resurrection, it cannot be denied that Satan is bound for one thousand years (after the First Resurrection and the thousand years) and then released, at which time he will gather unto himself (through deception) the nations from around the world, will surround Jerusalem...and his followers will be destroyed.

In this we see several things that have to be accounted for: we see that there will be physical death for the wicked...after the First Resurrection. And unless we suggest that the beloved city is uninhabited or that only glorified sanits dwell there, then we can see that there will be physically alive Just that still have to resurrected.

Now that "all" are resurrected per your statement...

A second resurrection of ALL the dead shall occur at the return of Jesus Christ.

...overlooks the details given for the period which follows the Lord's return and the events that take place after that.

The fact that the dead are not raised at the time the Tribulation Martyrs are shows that there will not just be a general resurrection.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The Supper of the Great God (part one).

Just one more problem introduced by premillennialism, particularly the dispensational type.

I would greatly be interested to know which part of this statement...

Originally Posted by Darrell C
Not that scripture refers to a second resurrection, but I would agree that the Great White Throne judgement will be a general resurrection of sorts, in which the dead will be raised and judged. If-and this is a big IF-it is true that at the Great White Throne judgment there will also be among those raised that are Just, then we could view this as a "general resurrection." It is your text that keeps me from being dogmatic about only the wicked being raised, as it is very possible that those that die (the just) in the Millennial Kingdom will not be raised until the end of that Age.

...you are referring to?

I also think it possible, and am not dogmatic either way, that those that die in the Millennial Kingdom are glorified at death.

What judgment?

Good question. The answer is, the judgment that befalls the entire world in the Tribulation.

The passage provided was:

Matthew 24:37-43

King James Version (KJV)


37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


The question revolves around "who is taken, who is left, where are they taken, and where are they left?"

We see a specific answer from the Lord here:



Luke 17

King James Version (KJV)


24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


Most would agree both passages deal with the same event, the return of the Lord. When He returns, it will be a time of judgment, and we see that because the Lord uses the judgment of the Flood, as well as that of Sodom to illustrate what will be occurring, even as He does in Matthew 24.

In both of these we see judgment, and those that are saved...remain upon the earth. Whereas the wicked are destroyed from off the face of the earth.



31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Again, just as is consistant with judgment, those judged are destroyed, while the Just remain upon the earth, even as we see the Lord teaching here.

Now the disciples seek clarification:



37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Not a reference to "soaring witht he wings of eagles," but to being dinner for the eagles:

Just as in view the return of the Lord here, when we see the Lord's return in Revelation, we see the end of those taken (in judgment):


Revelation 19
King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


While it is true we find paranthetical passages in Revelation, I have come to believe that Revelation, for the most part, runs a fairly consistent pattern of sequential flow. Here the Lord returns, prior to the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, the army with Him is clothed in white, clean, fine linen, which suggests the Church, and we see that judgment upon the world is in view.


This next portion deals with that spoken of by the Lord to the disciples:


17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;



The Angel announces the coming judgment, and calls to "all the fowls." The Marriage Supper of the Lamb is not in view here, but that which was prophesied, for this is the great and terrible Day of the Lord, and that which follows called the Supper of the Great God:


18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


The fowl are called to feast upon the carcasses of those that are "taken." The carnage of this event is said to take some time to clean up after (and I will come to that again as soon as we finish this section up:



19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Here we see again...judgment! The Antichrist and false prophet are cast into Hell.


21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


And here we see the Lord's teaching fulfilled:

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The Supper of the Great God (part two).

Looking to the Old Testament, we see the same judgment described:




Ezekiel 39

King James Version (KJV)


39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.


Interestingly enough, we find this in scripture dealing with the restoration of Israel. Included in this is judgment against her enemies.

We see the reference to their physical death and that they will lie in the fields to be devoured.

Now, concerning the Age which follows this event, this is the word of the Lord concerning that period after this judgment:


6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:


For seven years we see the weapons of Israel's enemies burned. We see that the heathen will know that He is the Lord, the Holy One of Israel. We see that Israel will no longer pollute His name.

Just has not happened yet. Just as the Supper of the Great God has not.


10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.


For seven months the Lord tells us that Israel will bury the corpses of her enemies, that the land may be cleansed.


17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.



Can we say there are two separate events in view? Perhaps. If, like myself, you see that certain prophecies have more than one fulfillment, and progression can be seen in certain events. For example, we could apply this not just to the judgment at the end of the Tribulation, but also to that which takes place at the end of the Thousand years. This is unlikely, as at the end of the Millennial reign we see the establishment of the Eternal State, and there will be no need for the cleansing of the land, nor the distinction given between Gentiles and Israel.

Look at it again.



Luke 17:35-37

King James Version (KJV)


35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


Given the prophecy concerning Israel and the promised Kingdom, it seems a reasonable conclusion to see the Lord teaching that there will be a fulfillment of Ezekial's prophecy, and when it occurs, just as in previous judgments, the wicked are eradicated from the earth, and in each occurrence...only the Just are left alive.

That is a good question. I don't believe in the snatching away, you do!

I hope the previous posts at the least will give a reasonable basis to my hope in the catching away based upon the fact that we see a difference in the vevents which transpire in the end times. As well as my expectancy that prophecy will, as always, be fulfilled according to the word of the Lord, and that no promise of God shall go unfulfilled.

This response (yours) has been answered adequately, I would like to think. That there is a period of time after the Supper of the Great God, found in both Old and New Testament teaching, can clearly be seen. When we take into consideration all of the events that transpire, we are forced, by reason of description, to see that there needs be that these events cannot be the same, and that study of resurrection leads us to a belief in the Rapture occurring before the promised Millennial Kingdom, and that despite our differences as to pre or post Tribulational view, there will be an earthly Kingdom upon this earth.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Souls is used in Scripture to indicate the spirits of man and on occasion the totality of man.

I would suggest that the term "soul" is most often used of man in the total sense.

There are those, I am sure you are aware, that teach that there is no literal hell, soul sleep, and annihilation. The basis of their doctrine is compiled of contextual error in the Old Testament, for the most part.

I highly recommend a thorough study of this term as it will help in combatting the false teachings mentioned above.

The rest of the dead are those who died in Adam. The term "lived not" is simply contrast to those who lived and reigned with Jesus Christ!

I might be inclined to, if not completely agree, at the least concede that only those from the Church Age and the Tribulation (believers of course) are resurrected by the time we get to Revelation 20 and the first resurrection mentioned there.

You say "The term "lived not" is simply contrast to those who lived and reigned with Jesus Christ!"

Not sure where you see me disagreeing with this. I agree fully.

We can say that those who remain dead are those that died in Adam, but...it shows clearly that in view is not a general resurrection, which you say you "routinely mention."

Lazarus was not resurrected, he was raised from the dead. Big difference. In Scripture the resurrection means raised with a glorified body as Jesus Christ had.

I'm sorry? You are saying that Lazarus was not resurrected?

You are distinguishing that "resurrection" and "being raised from the dead" are two different things?

With this statement...

In Scripture the resurrection means raised with a glorified body as Jesus Christ had.

...you destroy your basis: first, because it will not stand up to scrutiny (in that resurrection refers to "being raised from the dead") and secondly...you have just denied the basis for your "general resurrection," as we see clearly in scripture that...



John 5:29

King James Version (KJV)


29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

See above!

Thanks. I will have to tell my wife about that cobweb on the ceiling.

(just kidding, OR)

Sure we can deny they are two literal men. Revelation is written in apocalyptic language, not necessarily to be interpreted literally.

How is it then that if they are not two literal men we see...


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


...they are clothed, and that in sackcloth.


5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

...they are said to have mouths.



7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


...they are said to be killed.


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

...they have bodies.

...these bodies lie in the street.


9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.


...their bodies are viewed for three (literal) days.

...their bodies are not allowed to be buried.


10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

...they are called Prophets.

...their ministry tormented those that dwelled upon the earth.


11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

...they are said to have a bodily resurrection.

...they stand "on their feet."

...immediate fear falls upon the earth dwellers.


12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


...they are Raptured (snatched away).

...their ascension is viewed by their enemies (which belies a "secret rapture," in my mind).


How can one spiritualize the description of these two as not being literal men is beyond me. None of the descriptions above, no matter the intesity of the desire to do so, can negate the events which preclude a determination other than that these are literal men.

They stnd in the offices of Priest and King, even as Joshua and Zerubbabel.

I am!

Okay.

That is correct. The only bodily resurrection that has occurred at this point in time is that of Jesus Christ. Those reigning with Jesus Christ are the souls of the departed Saints.

Not accurate, the first statement, I mean. Lazarus, for exmple, was dead according to the word of Christ.

I agree with the second statement except to clarify that by "souls" I would be referring to the individuals as the collective, glorified saint.

I have stated that the First Resurrection is that of Jesus Christ. no One else!

And this is not accurate either. The resurrection of Jesus does indeed fall into the category of the First Resurrection, as the resurrection unto damnation is "the other resurrection," and that there are, qualitatively...only two resurrections.

However, we see multiple resurrections concering sequence of time, namely, the First of Revelation 20 and the resurrection of the dead following the one thousand years.

By stating the resurrection of the Lord is the First Resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20, rather than "the first resurrection," Revelation 20's teaching becomes, in my opinion only, lost.

Okay, OR, hope you don't mind me responding in such detail, I have just not had the opportunity to get into a discussion concerning eschatology for a while, and because I enjoy the topic so much, indulged myself, lol.

Thanks for the responses.

God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

In Revelation 20...all are dead. Some are raised, some are not. We do not see a general resurrection mentioned in either case. And while I will agree it is completely reasonable to see this as simply not mentioning the resurrection of the wicked, I have to reject this based upon the fact that we have a resurrection in Revelation 11, another in Revelation 20 concerinng believers (Tribulation Martyrs), and a thousand year time-frame (and a period of time despite how long one makes "a thousand years to be") between one resurrection (of the just) and the other (of the dead).

Which leads one to a more reasonable view that there are multiple resurrections, the resurrection of the Just being of the same type and qualitatively different from that of the dead.


Continued...

There is no resurrection in Revelation 11 unless you assume that the two witnesses are two people which is a stretch given they are called: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

If the resurrection in Revelation 20 is of the tribulation martyrs what about the pre-trib raptured Church? Where are they ?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Lazarus was not resurrected, he was raised from the dead. Big difference. In Scripture the resurrection means raised with a glorified body as Jesus Christ had.

I'm sorry? You are saying that Lazarus was not resurrected?

You are distinguishing that "resurrection" and "being raised from the dead" are two different things?

With this statement...


...you destroy your basis: first, because it will not stand up to scrutiny (in that resurrection refers to "being raised from the dead") and secondly...you have just denied the basis for your "general resurrection," as we see clearly in scripture that...

John 5:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Lazarus died again. Jesus Christ was raised to die no more. In most instances in Scripture where people were raised from the dead they died again. The one exception is the raising of some OT Saints following the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Scripture does not tell us what happened to these men other than that they appeared to some in Jerusalem.

As for the resurrection of the evil dead in John 5:29 you make a valid point that they did not have a glorified body. However, it is likely that their body was something other than simply physical since they were condemned to the lake of fire.

If you will check all cases in Scripture where the word "resurrection" is used I believe you will see that it refers to a resurrection similar to that of Jesus Christ.

 

[Darrell C]

There is no resurrection in Revelation 11 unless you assume that the two witnesses are two people which is a stretch given they are called: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

If the resurrection in Revelation 20 is of the tribulation martyrs what about the pre-trib raptured Church? Where are they ?

And I am called a literalist...lol.

Okay, fair enough and a good question (the former).

In Revelation 11 we can see that they are literally two men, and in a previous post I give distinguishing characteristics that show this.

The reference of the two olive trees and two candlesticks is not without precedence in scripture, so bear with me, this may involve several verses:




Zechariah 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.


Here we have Joshua the High Priest...standing before the Lord. So my first proposal is that this is one of the TWO which stand before the Lord, representing the Office of High Priest. We can dismiss Satan as the other...lol, he is not in view concerning the TWO.

And as a side-note, while we are here, consider:


8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.


I believe here we have part of the basis for the Statement of the Lord...I am the True Vine, which represents the blessing and provision of God. Here, a certain looking forward to restoration and ideal conditions for Israel, which extend to the whole world, though at the time of this prophecy it is specific to Israel.

We see a picture of abundance in the following imagery:







Zechariah 4

King James Version (KJV)

4 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.

2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.


Here we see direct reference to two olive trees, such as we see in Revelation 11.

Consider:


4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?

5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

Does the Angel answer immediately? Some think not. Perhaps not as directly as we will see in v.14, but I think that we can see there is an answer in his response before v.14:



6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

8 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,


Reference to Zerubbabel can be viewed as prophetic of the combining of the kingly and priestly roles, as Zerubbabel is descended from both Joshua and David. We see the roles of King and Priest combined in Messiah.

Comparing the prophecy here with Revelation 20, we see some similarities that should be noted.


9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you.

10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.


In v.9 we see reference to Christ.

In v.10 we see a standard of measure, which is also seen in Revelation 11. We also see reference to the "seven eyes," which I believe has a parallel in Revelation 1:4 called the "seven spirits" which points, I believe, to the omniscience of God by reason of His Spirit. Or in other words, a reference to the Spirit of God.


11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.


Again, we could view the statement in the previous verses to be in answer to the question, "what are these," and the reference given to Zerubbabel as prophetic of not only the declaration of what is to come, but the fulfillment as well. Both of which coming from God.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Now we can compare this with Revelation 11:




Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


In Zechariah we see reference to both Joshua and Zerrubabel, which leads me to believe that in view here are the two offices held by both which are combined in Christ. The correlation to two olive trees is easily seen, but the reference to two candlesticks is a little more difficult.

The term "candlesticks" is used to represent the churches in ch.1 of Revelation, but in Matthew 5 we see it is also used to represent, well, representatives of the Lord:


Matthew 5:14-15

King James Version (KJV)


14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.


That they "stand by the Lord of the whole earth" and "stand before the God of the earth" would seem to be the priorityof meaing here, that they are speaking for God as we see the two witnesses.

Lastly, it is not uncommon for terms to be used to speak of literal men. The Lord has a number of names, such as the Branch, Vine, Door, Lion, Lamb, Bread, et cetera. None of which terms deny the literal existance of the Lord. So it is not a good argument that because they are called olive trees and candlesticks that this means they cannot be literal men. If we were to take this in the extreme literal sense, then the picture of two literal olive trees as well as two candlesticks in Jerusalem is called to mind, and then we are forced to determine at which times they look like trees and which time they look like candlesticks. So it seems best, given the fact they are ascribed quite humanistic characteristics as listed in the previous post, to view these as two literal men.

If the resurrection in Revelation 20 is of the tribulation martyrs what about the pre-trib raptured Church? Where are they ?

Only one place they can be:



1 Thessalonians 4:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Whereas concerning the Tribulation Martyrs, they are said to be dead, while here we are resurrected in glorified bodies.

God bless.

 

[thomas15]

Isn't interesting that the early church took a passage that referred to Israel and their restoration and applied it to the church as the fulfillment of the restoration of Israel:

Act 15:14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
Act 15:16 "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen ; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, [restoration of Israel]
Act 15:17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things

To be blunt and to the point, no it's not that interesting.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello OR.

Lazarus died again. Jesus Christ was raised to die no more. In most instances in Scripture where people were raised from the dead they died again.

Agreed. This was clarified, I hope, in my posts. We are on the same page on this though I would have to remove "In most instances," based on...



1 Corinthians 15:23

King James Version (KJV)


23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This would, I would think, imply that those raised at the Crucifixion also later died again, for we would both agree that the catching away nor the Lord's return has happened yet, and it is doubtful they have survived these nearly two thousand years.

If one takes the position that Christ's return is spiritual, as some do, they have to reconcile the fact that it is years later that Paul makes this statement, and at the time of this writing it (the Lord's return) had still not occurred, and in fact, I think it safe to say that His Return was not held by any New Testament writer as having happened, which unless the resurrected of the Crucifixion lived beyond AD96, the reasonable conclusion would be that the "coming of Christ" in v.23 speaks about the personal collection of the saints which Paul's teaching implies.

The one exception is the raising of some OT Saints following the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now this interests me greatly. My Pastor, actually, believes this. I do not, based upon the statement above.

It seems that you may also...is this the case?

Scripture does not tell us what happened to these men other than that they appeared to some in Jerusalem.

I take the position that these were similar to Lazarus. It may be they lived until Pentecost, were born again when the Comforter came, but it is most likely that they died again, for Christ has not returned, and the Rapture has not taken place.

I will say that in scripture we see exceptions at times to general rules, such as Deborah popping up in a place of leadership when the entirety of scripture indicates leadership to be the man's role. So I would not be dogmatic on the point based on this line of thought, but thnk it likely they died again and are now with the Lord.

As for the resurrection of the evil dead in John 5:29 you make a valid point that they did not have a glorified body. However, it is likely that their body was something other than simply physical since they were condemned to the lake of fire.

Most do not consider that the wicked also will receive a "glorified body" of sorts, one suited to the eternity of torment taught in scripture. In this we can distinguish between the LIFE provided to natural man as opposed to the fact that natural man "has no life in him" as taught by Christ in John 6.

In other words, only those born again are said to be ALIVE. Natural man, naturally, falls into the category of being dead. We do see those in Revelation 20 that are glorified termed as "dead," which then, in my mind, places the context as one of a physical nature, rather than one spiritual. We both agree, I think, that the New Birth is a spiritual resurrection of sorts, where those that are dead in trespasses and sins, having died (spiritually) in Adam, are made alive specifically with the Life Christ teaches in John 6 that He came to give the world.

We see also the metaphor of "bread" used that symbolizes the provision of God: manna to sustain physical life in the wilderness (and Christ said the fathers ate but are "dead") and the Bread from Heaven which is Christ.

If you will check all cases in Scripture where the word "resurrection" is used I believe you will see that it refers to a resurrection similar to that of Jesus Christ.

Actually, I would suggest that primarily there is reference to that which you mention...a general resurrection. I would have to follow your advice and actually look at all of them, which is worthy advice and would be I am sure profitable, but...I am about out of time. As I said, I have indulged myself this morning, but, alas, all good things must come to an end, lol.

God bless.