Essential Doctrine from the Bible

[Oseas3]

Yeah, well I’m Captain Stubing, and you’re on The Love Boat.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand?
Revelation 18:21-> And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great...Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. By the way, soon will be elected the NEXT and LAST Pope.

The gigantic ship of the Devil identified as RCC, whose captain calls stumblingblock, sailing within the blackness of darkness has been adrift throughout its existence, and is now sinking into the abyss with its all crew and trevelers, all followers of the Roman Catholic Church, without salvation and lost for ever and ever.

And the owner of the ship, the red Dragon-Revelation 12:9-, is laid hold on and bound a thousand years, and he will be cast into the bottomless pit that he should deceive the nations no more.

Get ready

 

[Cathode]

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand?
Revelation 18:21-> And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great...Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. By the way, soon will be elected the NEXT and LAST Pope.

The gigantic ship of the Devil identified as RCC, whose captain calls stumblingblock, sailing within the blackness of darkness has been adrift throughout its existence, and is now sinking into the abyss with its all crew and trevelers, all followers of the Roman Catholic Church, without salvation and lost for ever and ever.

And the owner of the ship, the red Dragon-Revelation 12:9-, is laid hold on and bound a thousand years, and he will be cast into the bottomless pit that he should deceive the nations no more.

Get ready

 

[Oseas3]

Alas, alas that Church, the great prostitute, clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls, and the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication with her, and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, for her plagues come in one Day(in this seventh and last Day or seventh and last Millennium), death, and mourning, and famine; for strong is the Lord God who Judgeth her.

And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, cry an weep when they see her be thrown down, and be found no more at all.

Rejoice over her, thou heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8), and ye holy apostles and prophets; for GOD avenges you on her. 2Thessalonians 1:7-9:-> 7 And to you (the believers) who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord JESUS shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels(Michael is one of them), 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not GOD(heard ot speak of GOD, but never knew Him), and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ(they replaced the pure gospel of our Lord by their idolatries and witcheries). 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power. JESUS emphatically declared, saying: Matthew 28:18-> ... All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Get ready

 

[DaveXR650]

If you are concerned about hearing other beliefs and perspectives, the Other Denominations sub forum might be tough place to go on, because inevitably you will hear many other beliefs and perspectives you will disagree with, even strongly disagree with.

It's not that I'm concerned about hearing other beliefs. It's just argument stays at such a basic level and just goes back and forth with greater and greater animosity. Once everyone has stated their positions, if no one is able to bring anything else in there is no reason to keep going back and forth. If you start with a presupposition that what Rome says is equivalent in authority with scripture then you will not be able to really discuss these issues with someone with the opposite presupposition.

Even in this thread you start out with blaming Protestant confusion with disagreement over the Trinity when you know that the first church council was about - disagreement over the Trinity, long before the Reformation.

 

[kyredneck]

Besides, there is only one small sub forum entitled “ Other denominations “ for people to freely express their theology and perspectives.
This is a good thing, because sites that don’t do this become echo chambers and die out. Without different perspectives there is no real debate and learning of new things, this is what makes a site interesting.
I have learned many new things here, I really have, and appreciate it.

Spot on! And very boring.

[add]

Since all you Catholics get your directions from the same manmade catechism, it sounds like a perfect recipe for an echo chamber to me.

 

[JonC]

No we don’t. I have had a full volume set of The Fathers from a young age, I have hardly touched on them in quoting them to you.

I know what they say, and they don’t resemble bible alone theologies.



Baptist’s are a small subset of the Bible alone believers, but even among them theology isn’t settled.

You already confessed that you rejected the ECF' view that it is the symbolism but not the elements that change with the Eucharist. Their writings, which you quoted in part, were posted in full and you know this (you were there).

The ECF's actually look very much like Bible alone believers. They did not rely on a leader of the church (or a pope) but offered their own interpretations even though they often disagreed with one another.

Baptists are the largest segment. But I know there are others. So?

 

[kyredneck]

If you start with a presupposition that what Rome says is equivalent in authority with scripture then you will not be able to really discuss these issues with someone with the opposite presupposition.

Right. When @Cathode shows his contempt for us 'Bible alone' folk (of which I am one), what profit is there for further discussion?

Foundational to Protestantism:
"The Bible is a plain book. It is intelligible by the people. And they have the right, and are bound to read and interpret it for themselves; so that their faith may rest on the testimony of the Scriptures, and not on that of the Church. Such is the doctrine of Protestants on this subject....."
Perspicuity of the Scriptures. The Right of Private Judgment
by Charles Hodge

 

[JonC]

Another interesting fact about the Catholic Church, the Early Church, and essential doctrines is that the Roman Cathoic Church rejects every ECF when it comes to the Atonement (something that is very much essential to our faith).

They are not alone in this, of course, but my point is @Cathode is not presenting an honest discussion of the topic.

Which brings me to a warning....proselytizing to the Roman Catholic Faith is not allowed (some comments come very close to this line).

 

[kyredneck]

.proselytizing to the Roman Catholic Faith

...would have zero effect on me. You?

 

[JonC]

...would have zero effect on me. You?

Zero on me as well. But it is what it is. And the line is subjective.

 

[37818]

An essential doctrine presumes it to be a matter to eternal salvation. Most professing Christians agree water baptism is not essential to salvation. And not denying the Trinity is an essential. There are at least three versions of the Biblical Trinity. But all agreeing there are.three Persons who are the same God.

 

[Cathode]

Right. When @Cathode shows his contempt for us 'Bible alone' folk (of which I am one), what profit is there for further discussion?

Foundational to Protestantism:
"The Bible is a plain book. It is intelligible by the people. And they have the right, and are bound to read and interpret it for themselves; so that their faith may rest on the testimony of the Scriptures, and not on that of the Church. Such is the doctrine of Protestants on this subject....."
Perspicuity of the Scriptures. The Right of Private Judgment
by Charles Hodge

I have contempt for the error that divides us, not for the brethren in error, who I consider brothers in Christ none the less, and all the more if they are prepared to contest for their love of Him.

15 “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1 Timothy 3

Now, ask a Bible alone Protestant what he believes is the pillar and foundation of Truth is.
“ There is only one “ he will say, “ The Scripture alone “.

Yet strangely when we read the Scripture itself, it says that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth “.

Ask a Catholic what the “ pillar and foundation of the truth “ is. And he will say “ The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, it is infallible, founded by Christ on the Apostles and guided in all Truth, “. This lines up with what scripture says of the Church, pillar and foundation of the truth, and in other scripture, guided in all truth. It’s saying the Church is infallible in other words.

Do we need anything else a part from the Scriptures?

Bible alone protestant will say “ No, everything we need is in the Scriptures, we need no other authority over us but the Word of God in Scripture “ Am I not correct? Is this a fair representation?

Yet Scripture says.

“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.“

Ask a Catholic if we need anything else a part from the Scriptures.

He will say “ We need the elders and overseers of the Church who are infallibly guided to interpret God’s word and explain its meaning to us as Christ’s Apostolic Shepherds guided in all Truth. We must obey and submit to them because they watch over our souls “.

Who in practice is Scriptural here?

Do these scriptures demonstrate “ Me and my bible and me “, far from it.

The Apostles appointed bishops like Timothy and Titus to succeed them.

“ Teach and reprove with all Authority, let no one despise you “

So if Timothy and Titus was your overseer, they had complete Apostolic Authority over you, and you would obey and submit to their teaching because they watched over your souls.

You weren’t free to pick up scripture and interpret your own doctrines from it, there was a lineage of appointed Apostolic men with Authority to teach you the true interpretations of the Word.

Men outside this Apostolic lineage are unapproved and have no authority to teach and reprove anyone.

 

[Cathode]

...would have zero effect on me. You?

Only God can convince anyone of anything, there is big difference between someone of good will hearing the word, and Richard Dawkins hearing the word.

I’m only presenting the traditional interpretation of scripture, not mine or any other human interpretation of scripture.

For instance.

The Fathers I quoted were quoting scripture themselves, but their understanding of being “ born again” ie regeneration was Water Baptism, all of them.

It was universal, all Christians East and West for the first 1500 years believed that Water Baptism was born again regeneration.

Enter Tradition of men. Zwingli was the first to propose and teach that Baptism was merely symbolic and did nothing.
It was a radical new teaching and departure from all preceding Christianity and the scriptures.

So people have a choice whether to follow the entire Church for the first 1500 years which from the beginning understood regenerative water Baptism from the words of Christ “ born again of water and Spirit “.

Or you can follow an entirely new and human founded tradition and become Zwinglist , denying Water Baptism’s regeneration.

People brought up in a tradition of men don’t generally realise it. Unless they are curious enough to go back in history and find out exactly when their doctrines were founded and by whom.

So symbolic baptism is a human tradition that does not go back to the Apostles.

 

[Cathode]

It's not that I'm concerned about hearing other beliefs. It's just argument stays at such a basic level and just goes back and forth with greater and greater animosity. Once everyone has stated their positions, if no one is able to bring anything else in there is no reason to keep going back and forth. If you start with a presupposition that what Rome says is equivalent in authority with scripture then you will not be able to really discuss these issues with someone with the opposite presupposition.

I start with the presupposition that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, which aligns with scripture.

You disagree with this, which ironically contradicts the scripture.

Even in this thread you start out with blaming Protestant confusion with disagreement over the Trinity when you know that the first church council was about - disagreement over the Trinity, long before the Reformation.

If the premise of Protestantism was true, that Scripture was the sole authority and all we needed was to prayerfully read it guided by The Holy Spirit, then everyone would be united in one faith after reading it, despite human weaknesses.

The premise is manifestly false, because in Bible alone Protestantism the Bible itself is the source of their disunity, with conflicting interpretations and contrary doctrines.

The Bible in Catholic hands truly is the source of our unity, not just around the entire world, but in unity with all the ancient fathers whose interpretations of Scripture are the same as ours.

For Christ also said, ‘Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: ‘Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well…And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow…And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone…And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61 (A.D. 110-165).

So when a Catholic reads scripture, he is united in his understanding of it to the Fathers of his faith.

 

[Cathode]

Zero on me as well. But it is what it is. And the line is subjective.

People might disagree with other denominations beliefs and perspectives but that’s no reason to censor them.

I can’t just ignore the vicious attacks on my faith, even scripture says to prepared defend your faith, it’s Scriptural to say something.
But it also says to warn your brother who is in error, and we all follow that scriptural prescription as Christians when we each try to point out an error we perceive from eachs understanding of scripture.

It’s out of good will with me many times that people have debated against Catholic beliefs as error, I disagree with the debated points, but I can’t deny the Good will behind it. If they didn’t care they wouldn’t even both debating me about it.

If from your perspective if you see what you think is a dude following error, it’s our Christian duty to refute and contend the error for the sake of the dude question.

So it’s best hear everyone out to know exactly what’s in error, and hash it out.

I reject the claims that Catholics are the whore of Babylon, the devils ship, are satanic/pagan, and on the path to hell.
But defend people’s right express their perspective, even if I don’t like it, and I think it’s an ignorant and prejudiced perspective.

 

[JonC]

People might disagree with other denominations beliefs and perspectives but that’s no reason to censor them.

My comment was to @kyredneck , that even if you were trying to convert people it would have no effect on me.

The reason is that I have studied history and read the writings in full that you reference in part.

I know that, for example, the Roman Catholic Church rejects every ECF when it comes to the Atonement. I also know that Aquinas was instrumental in how they now view the Atonement. So I know that your posts express a very flawed (either out of ignorance or dishonesty) argument.

I also know, as another example, that the ECF's did not believe the elements of the Eucharist changed into literal flesh and blood but instead the symbolism changed. I know this because their writings you referenced in part state this.

Another example is the writings of the ECF's where they expressed disagreements in interpretation. You say they agreed on interpretation where they actually argued against one another on several issues of interpretation. They did not rely on one person to come up with the right interpretation.


There can be no legitimate "hashing out" of differences because you hold a different standard than God's Word. It is the same with any cult (Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc).

For these things to be hashed out there would have to be a common authority. For you it is your Church. For us it is God's Word.

You can only hash out differences with other people who hold the Roman Catholic Church as their authority.

 

[Oseas3]

Besides, there is only one small sub forum entitled “ Other denominations “ for people to freely express their theology and perspectives.
This is a good thing, because sites that don’t do this become echo chambers and die out. Without different perspectives there is no real debate and learning of new things, this is what makes a site interesting.

I have learned many new things here, I really have, and appreciate it.

If you are concerned about hearing other beliefs and perspectives, the Other Denominations sub forum might be tough place to go on, because inevitably you will hear many other beliefs and perspectives you will disagree with, even strongly disagree with.

I also know, as another example, that the ECF's did not believe the elements of the Eucharist changed into literal flesh and blood but instead the symbolism changed. I know this because their writings you referenced in part state this.

Another example is the writings of the ECF's where they expressed disagreements in interpretation. You say they agreed on interpretation where they actually argued against one another on several issues of interpretation. They did not rely on one person to come up with the right interpretation.

There can be no legitimate "hashing out" of differences because you hold a different standard than God's Word. It is the same with any cult (Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc).

For these things to be hashed out there would have to be a common authority. For you it is your Church. For us it is God's Word.

You can only hash out differences with other people who hold the Roman Catholic Church as their authority.

Paul Apostle prophesied, saying: 2Timothy 3:1 and 5-9

1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.


Jude 1:3-5 and 10-15

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, brother of James, in his epistle said to them that are sanctified by GOD the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our GOD into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord GOD, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.


10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute Judgment upon all (1Corinthians 6:2-3 among other biblical references, even Daniel 7:22&26-27), and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

[Oseas3]

I have contempt for the error that divides us, not for the brethren in error, who I consider brothers in Christ none the less, and all the more if they are prepared to contest for their love of Him.
15 “if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1 Timothy 3
Now, ask a Bible alone Protestant what he believes is the pillar and foundation of Truth is.
“ There is only one “ he will say, “ The Scripture alone “.

Yet strangely when we read the Scripture itself, it says that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of the truth “.
Ask a Catholic what the “ pillar and foundation of the truth “ is. And he will say “ The Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, it is infallible, founded by Christ on the Apostles and guided in all Truth, “. This lines up with what scripture says of the Church, pillar and foundation of the truth, and in other scripture, guided in all truth. It’s saying the Church is infallible in other words.
Do we need anything else a part from the Scriptures?
Bible alone protestant will say “ No, everything we need is in the Scriptures, we need no other authority over us but the Word of God in Scripture “ Am I not correct? Is this a fair representation?
Yet Scripture says.
“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.“
Ask a Catholic if we need anything else a part from the Scriptures.
He will say “ We need the elders and overseers of the Church who are infallibly guided to interpret God’s word and explain its meaning to us as Christ’s Apostolic Shepherds guided in all Truth. We must obey and submit to them because they watch over our souls “.
Who in practice is Scriptural here?
Do these scriptures demonstrate “ Me and my bible and me “, far from it.
The Apostles appointed bishops like Timothy and Titus to succeed them.

“ Teach and reprove with all Authority, let no one despise you “
So if Timothy and Titus was your overseer, they had complete Apostolic Authority over you, and you would obey and submit to their teaching because they watched over your souls.
You weren’t free to pick up scripture and interpret your own doctrines from it, there was a lineage of appointed Apostolic men with Authority to teach you the true interpretations of the Word.
Men outside this Apostolic lineage are unapproved and have no authority to teach and reprove anyone.

The Antichrist was born and rose up from the own Church-See how

The Antichrist was born and rose up from the own Church-See how | Pure Bible Forum (and see www.sinaiticus.net

[URL='https://friendsofjesus.proboards.com/thread/11898/antichrists-kingdom-5th-universal']Antichrist's Kingdom- the 5th universal kingdom | Friends Of Jesus )[/URL]

 

[DaveXR650]

I start with the presupposition that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, which aligns with scripture.

You disagree with this, which ironically contradicts the scripture.

This is what I was talking about when I said you just state your dogma and then won't respond to what anyone else actually says. Reformed teaching is that the church determines the application of doctrinal truth and judges individual sin. The are specific doctrines as to how this works, much of which is involved with the use of the "keys".

The difference is, Protestant teaching does not put the authority of man above what we have in scripture. A Protestant doctrine may be wrong but the starting premise is at least that the teaching was derived from scripture and is supported by scripture. Mistakes can be made (no one is claiming infallibility) but there is at least the possibility of correction because someone else can say later "that is wrong". Roman Catholics cannot do that because they have made impossible claims that cannot be reversed. An example would be how modern Catholic theologians try very hard to say Baptists are lesser brothers while they stumble over the anathemas of Trent.

The problem of what you call confusion is real, but the problem of perpetual error, compounded over time and enforced by one huge body is also there. G. Campbell Morgan, the predecessor of Martyn Lloyd Jones, addressed this by saying that God in his wisdom, has not put all truth in every detail under one denominational body.

The Protestant model is that scripture is the final authority, even over the church, but with these differences. The application of these truths is done by the church (and it usually is the local church, not a universal church), and no new edicts are pronounced as coming directly from God because the scriptures are complete.

 

[Oseas3]

Jude 1:1

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by GOD the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Yeah, sanctified by GOD the Father,

not by the Vicarivs Filii Dei, who was born from the sin, from the Devil.