ESV Reformation Study Bible on Matthew 24

it is interesting to note that deafpost lumps Matt 24:30-31 together and ed separates them in his outline.
deaf: although i cannot put my finger on the thread, i'm pretty sure that i have seen it posted (possibly by Ed?) the set of verses about the rapture and the set of verses about the second comming.

grasshopper: of course john in quoting zach 12, all i'm saying is that there is more to the passage in zach 12 than was fullfilled at the cross (i may be wrong -- I am always learning ). was the cross the 'day of mourning'? I believe that after the rapture, Jews will take a second look at the one they have pierced, and understand that they missed the boat.

 

1. Any scriptual proof? You seem to be basing that belief on a passage John says was fulfilled at the cross.

2.Are you saying modern or future Jews pierced Jesus?

 

Richar n Koustas: //i'm pretty sure that i have seen it posted (possibly by Ed?) the set of verses about the rapture and the set of verses about the second comming.//


\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
Looking for that blessed hope,
and the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Two events mentioned here:
1) blessed hope
2) the glorious appearing of the great God
and our Saviour Jesus Christ

These two events are mentioned seperately
throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
in the N.T.

Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

Matthew 24:31-44 (in the Mount Olivet Discourse
---/mod/ and parallel passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21)
John 14:1-3
Romans 8:19
1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
1 Timothy 6:14
2 Timothy 4:1,8
Hebrews 9:28
1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
1 John 2:28-3:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2:25

Second Advent Passages
(Jesus comes again in power and glory
to defeat the antichrist and set up the
millinnial kingdom):

Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
Matthew 13:41
Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
Mark 13
Luke 21
Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
1 Thessalonians 3:13
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
1 Peter 4:12-19
2 Peter 3:1-14
Jude 1:14-15
Revelation 4-19

 

Here is the first part in ESV-talk:

------------------
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. when will these things be?
2. what will be the sign of your coming?
3. What will be the sign ... of the close of the age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. when will these things be?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. what will be the sign of your coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What will be the sign ... of the close of the age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. when will these things be? (the temple being destroyed)
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What will be the sign ... of the close of the age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. what will be the sign of your coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

 

Ed,

So many times in the past, I have been told you, that you did not follow the Hermeneutic rule - Intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY

You always separate Matt. 24:31 from verse, 29-30 as you break Christ's word about his coming in this context.

Ed, you are correct, Matt. 24:31 is talk about our gathering together is rapture, yet, you interprets verse 31 is speaks of 'pretrib' rapture. No way you can prove Matt. 24:31 is speak of 'pretrib' rapture, because Christ was not actually saying it.

Most baptists might not agree with you on Matt. 24:31 is speak of rapture. Most baptists saying Matt. 24:31 is speak of the gathering of the Jews at the end of tribulation at Christ's coming. Most baptists are partially correct. Yes, course, Jews shall be gathering together at Christ's coming, but do not forget also gathering of the Gentiles include. Word, 'elect' means God's chosen. We are God's chosen people through the blood of Jesus Christ - Eph. 1:4; Col. 3:12; 1 Peter 1:2.

Ed, the reason you always separate Matt. 24:31 from verse 2-30, because you know that Christ saying that he will come back AFTER the tribulation - "Immediately AFTER[/B[ the tribulation..." , clear, it is posttribulational coming of Christ. Christ does not saying that he will come again before tribulation. Church history telling us, that Church already experinced so countless of tribulations and persecutions throughout many centuries. No promise from the Bible that we shall escape from persecutions and tribulations. why shall we have tribulations? Because Jesus Christ already overcome them through calvary, He suffered for us, so, therefore we ought follow Christ's example - John 16:33; Acts 14:22; 1 Peter 4:12-16; and 2 Peter 2:21.

You cannot find a verse in Matthew chapter 24 saying Christ shall come again before tribulation. Christ clear telling us that we must see the signs first include abomination of desolation also then cosmic disturbance appears, Christ comes right after the tribulation to gathering us together.

Also, no way you can find a hint anywhere in Matthew 24 saying there are two comings. Christ tells us, there is the only one coming of Christ at the end of the age, very simple and plain.

Ed, you have to accept what Christ actual saying of Matt. 24:29-31 that He will come again after tribulation, not before tribulation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed: thanks.

grasshopper:
I believe that the 'day of mourning' was not fulfilled at the cross (here again, this is my opinion (at this point in time- subject to change when i am more fully known!!)). Post-rapture, when most jews have remained behind...in total confusion...they will open to the new testament for the very first time and take a second look. not only will they look, but they will understand that Jesus was the promised Messiah. This will be when they finally mourn ...

 

I called to order the Reformation Study Bible in the ESV .I was ordering it from RC Sproul's site .I asked if the Bible changed at all ?You know if they added or took away anything ?
The guy was talking to said that the print was bigger .I said great then he said that because of publishing problems they couldn't put J.I.Packers commentaries and some maps in it .To some it may not be a big deal .I have a New Geneva in NKJ .My Crossways ESV Leather is falling apart aready its only a year old !Thank the Lord for duck tape !

 

All of the signs of Mt. 24 were fulfilled in the first century? Wow! I wonder why no historian including Josephus ever mentioned or wrote about this sign:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one
end of heaven to the other." Mt. 24:29-31

Hmmm...And not one 'tribe' remembers this great event.

 

Hmmmmm..........you seemed to forget verse 34. Why?

Those who were not influenced by the poison of the dispy view understood the meaning of the Olivet Discourse. Here are some examples you can read for yourself. Careful though, it could prove to be too much for a follower of Jack Van Impe.

John Lightfoot

29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[The sun shall be darkened, &c.] That is, the Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened, and brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10, and Ezekiel 32:7,8, &c.

30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man.] Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, whom they would not before acknowledge: as proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall now him, whether they will or no, Isaiah 26:11. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messias, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world.

31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[And he shall send his angels, &c.] When Jerusalem shall be reduced to ashes, and that wicked nation cut off and rejected, then shall the Son of man send his ministers with the trumpet of the gospel, and they shall gather together his elect of the several nations from the four corners of heaven: so that God shall not want a church...

34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

[This generation shall not pass, &c.] Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment, but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matthew 16:28, compare John 21:22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ismael, and others.

John Gill: http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024&verse=029

Matthew Henry
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024


Adam Clarke

Verse 29. Immediately after the tribulation, generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened-brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; ; Ezekiel 32:7,8, Lightfoot.

In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens:-

The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9,10.

The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7,8.

The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.

And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30,31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth-darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.

The falling of stars, i.e. those meteors which are called falling stars by the common people, was deemed an omen of evil times. The heathens have marked this:-


And oft before tempestuous winds arise The seeming stars fall headlong from the skies, And, shooting through the darkness, gild the night With sweeping glories, and long trails of light. Dryden. Again the same poet thus sings:-



The sun reveals the secrets of the sky, And who dares give the source of light the lie? The change of empires often he declares, Fierce tumults, hidden treasons, open wars. He first the fate of Caesar did foretell, And pitied Rome, when Rome in Caesar fell: In iron clouds concealed the public light, And impious mortals found eternal night. Dryden.


Verse 30. Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man
The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By t?????, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.

Verse 31. He shall send his angels
t???a??e????, his messengers, the apostles, and their successors in the Christian ministry.

With a great sound of a trumpet
Or, a loud-sounding trumpet-the earnest affectionate call of the Gospel of peace, life, and salvation.

Shall gather together his elect
The Gentiles, who were now chosen or elected, in place of the rebellious, obstinate Jews, according to Our Lord's prediction, Matthew 8:11,12, and ; Luke 13:28,29. For the children of the kingdom, (the Jews who were born with a legal right to it, but had now finally forfeited that right by their iniquities) should be thrust out. It is worth serious observation, that the Christian religion spread and prevailed mightily after this period: and nothing contributed more to the success of the Gospel than the destruction of Jerusalem happening in the very time and manner, and with the very circumstances, so particularly foretold by our Lord. It was after this period that the kingdom of Christ began, and his reign was established in almost every part of the world.

To St. Matthew's account, St. Luke adds, Luke 21:24, They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shalt be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The number of those who fell by the sword was very great. ELEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND perished during the siege. Many were slain at other places, and at other times. By the commandment of Florus, the first author of the war, there were slain at Jerusalem 3,600, Jos. WAR, b. ii. c. 14. By the inhabitants of Caesarea, above 20,000. At Scythopolis, above 13,000. At Ascalon, 2,500. At Ptolemais, 2,000. At Alexandria, 50,000. At Joppa, when taken by Cestius Gallus, 8,400. In a mountain called Asamon, near Sepporis, above 2,000. At Damascus, 10,000. In a battle with the Romans at Ascalon, 10,000. In an ambuscade near the same place, 8,000. At Japha, 15,000. Of the Samaritans, on Mount Gerizim, 11,600. At Jotapa, 40,000. At Joppa, when taken by Vespasian, 4,200. At Tarichea, 6,500. And after the city was taken, 1,200. At Gamala, 4,000, besides 5,000 who threw themselves down a precipice. Of those who fled with John, of Gischala, 6,000. Of the Gadarenes, 15,000 slain, besides countless multitudes drowned. In the village of Idumea, above 10,000 slain. At Gerasa, 1,000. At Machaerus, 1,700. In the wood of Jardes, 3,000. In the castle of Masada, 960. In Cyrene, by Catullus the governor, 3,000. Besides these, many of every age, sex, and condition, were slain in the war, who are not reckoned; but, of those who are reckoned, the number amounts to upwards of 1,357,660, which would have appeared incredible, if their own historian had not so particularly enumerated them. See Josephus, WAR, book ii. c. 18,20; book iii. c. 2,7, 8,9; book iv. c. 1,2, 7,8, 9; book vii. c. 6,9, 11; and Bp. Newton, vol. ii. p. 288-290.

Many also were led away captives into all nations. There were taken at Japha, 2,130. At Jotapa, 1,200. At Tarichea, 6,000 chosen young men, who were sent to Nero; others sold to the number of 30,400, besides those who were given to Agrippa. Of the Gadarenes were taken 2,200. In Idumea above 1,000. Many besides these were taken in Jerusalem; so that, as Josephus says, the number of the captives taken in the whole war amounted to 97,000. Those above seventeen years of age were sent to the works in Egypt; but most were distributed through the Roman provinces, to be destroyed in their theatres by the sword, and by the wild beasts; and those under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves. Eleven thousand in one place perished for want. At Caesarea, Titus, like a thorough-paced infernal savage, murdered 2,500 Jews, in honour of his brother's birthday; and a greater number at Berytus in honour of his father's. See Josephus, WAR, b. vii. c. 3. s. 1. Some he caused to kill each other; some were thrown to the wild beasts; and others burnt alive. And all this was done by a man who was styled, The darling of mankind! Thus were the Jews miserably tormented, and distributed over the Roman provinces; and continue to be distressed and dispersed over all the nations of the world to the present day. Jerusalem also was, according to the prediction of our Lord, to be trodden down by the Gentiles. Accordingly it has never since been in the possession of the Jews. It was first in subjection to the Romans, afterwards to the Saracens, then to the Franks, after to the Mamalukes, and now to the Turks. Thus has the prophecy of Christ been most literally and terribly fulfilled, on a people who are still preserved as continued monuments of the truth of our Lord's prediction, and of the truth of the Christian religion. See more in Bp. Newton's Dissert. vol. ii. p. 291,

Oh, I think they remembered this event quite well. Assuming they survived of course.

 

Franky, I like the Reformation Study Bible treatment of Matthew 24 well enough, but i would caution against this study Bile's view of baptism and the Lord's Supper.

 

Hmmmmm..........you seemed to forget verse 34. Why?

***********************

Because as it says in verse 33, "when you see all these things" hasn't been fulfilled because no on earth has seen "the sun be
darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" nor have they seen Christ coming in the clouds of heaven as the angels said would happen when He returns. You are not arguing that Christ has returned already are you?

"Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven." Acts 1:11

"Like manner" means visible.

************************

Those who were not influenced by the poison of the dispy view understood the meaning of the Olivet Discourse. Here are some examples you can read for yourself. Careful though, it could prove to be too much for a follower of Jack Van Impe.

John Lightfoot

29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[The sun shall be darkened, &c.] That is, the Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened, and brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10, and Ezekiel 32:7,8, &c.

30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man.] Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, whom they would not before acknowledge: as proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall now him, whether they will or no, Isaiah 26:11. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messias, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world.

31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[And he shall send his angels, &c.] When Jerusalem shall be reduced to ashes, and that wicked nation cut off and rejected, then shall the Son of man send his ministers with the trumpet of the gospel, and they shall gather together his elect of the several nations from the four corners of heaven: so that God shall not want a church...

34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

[This generation shall not pass, &c.] Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment, but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matthew 16:28, compare John 21:22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ismael, and others.

John Gill: http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024&verse=029

Matthew Henry
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=024


Adam Clarke

Verse 29. Immediately after the tribulation, generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened-brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; ; Ezekiel 32:7,8, Lightfoot.

In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens:-

The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9,10.

The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7,8.

The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.

And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30,31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth-darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.

The falling of stars, i.e. those meteors which are called falling stars by the common people, was deemed an omen of evil times. The heathens have marked this:-


And oft before tempestuous winds arise The seeming stars fall headlong from the skies, And, shooting through the darkness, gild the night With sweeping glories, and long trails of light. Dryden. Again the same poet thus sings:-



The sun reveals the secrets of the sky, And who dares give the source of light the lie? The change of empires often he declares, Fierce tumults, hidden treasons, open wars. He first the fate of Caesar did foretell, And pitied Rome, when Rome in Caesar fell: In iron clouds concealed the public light, And impious mortals found eternal night. Dryden.


Verse 30. Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man
The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By t?????, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.

Verse 31. He shall send his angels
t???a??e????, his messengers, the apostles, and their successors in the Christian ministry.

With a great sound of a trumpet
Or, a loud-sounding trumpet-the earnest affectionate call of the Gospel of peace, life, and salvation.

Shall gather together his elect
The Gentiles, who were now chosen or elected, in place of the rebellious, obstinate Jews, according to Our Lord's prediction, Matthew 8:11,12, and ; Luke 13:28,29. For the children of the kingdom, (the Jews who were born with a legal right to it, but had now finally forfeited that right by their iniquities) should be thrust out. It is worth serious observation, that the Christian religion spread and prevailed mightily after this period: and nothing contributed more to the success of the Gospel than the destruction of Jerusalem happening in the very time and manner, and with the very circumstances, so particularly foretold by our Lord. It was after this period that the kingdom of Christ began, and his reign was established in almost every part of the world.

To St. Matthew's account, St. Luke adds, Luke 21:24, They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shalt be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The number of those who fell by the sword was very great. ELEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND perished during the siege. Many were slain at other places, and at other times. By the commandment of Florus, the first author of the war, there were slain at Jerusalem 3,600, Jos. WAR, b. ii. c. 14. By the inhabitants of Caesarea, above 20,000. At Scythopolis, above 13,000. At Ascalon, 2,500. At Ptolemais, 2,000. At Alexandria, 50,000. At Joppa, when taken by Cestius Gallus, 8,400. In a mountain called Asamon, near Sepporis, above 2,000. At Damascus, 10,000. In a battle with the Romans at Ascalon, 10,000. In an ambuscade near the same place, 8,000. At Japha, 15,000. Of the Samaritans, on Mount Gerizim, 11,600. At Jotapa, 40,000. At Joppa, when taken by Vespasian, 4,200. At Tarichea, 6,500. And after the city was taken, 1,200. At Gamala, 4,000, besides 5,000 who threw themselves down a precipice. Of those who fled with John, of Gischala, 6,000. Of the Gadarenes, 15,000 slain, besides countless multitudes drowned. In the village of Idumea, above 10,000 slain. At Gerasa, 1,000. At Machaerus, 1,700. In the wood of Jardes, 3,000. In the castle of Masada, 960. In Cyrene, by Catullus the governor, 3,000. Besides these, many of every age, sex, and condition, were slain in the war, who are not reckoned; but, of those who are reckoned, the number amounts to upwards of 1,357,660, which would have appeared incredible, if their own historian had not so particularly enumerated them. See Josephus, WAR, book ii. c. 18,20; book iii. c. 2,7, 8,9; book iv. c. 1,2, 7,8, 9; book vii. c. 6,9, 11; and Bp. Newton, vol. ii. p. 288-290.

Many also were led away captives into all nations. There were taken at Japha, 2,130. At Jotapa, 1,200. At Tarichea, 6,000 chosen young men, who were sent to Nero; others sold to the number of 30,400, besides those who were given to Agrippa. Of the Gadarenes were taken 2,200. In Idumea above 1,000. Many besides these were taken in Jerusalem; so that, as Josephus says, the number of the captives taken in the whole war amounted to 97,000. Those above seventeen years of age were sent to the works in Egypt; but most were distributed through the Roman provinces, to be destroyed in their theatres by the sword, and by the wild beasts; and those under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves. Eleven thousand in one place perished for want. At Caesarea, Titus, like a thorough-paced infernal savage, murdered 2,500 Jews, in honour of his brother's birthday; and a greater number at Berytus in honour of his father's. See Josephus, WAR, b. vii. c. 3. s. 1. Some he caused to kill each other; some were thrown to the wild beasts; and others burnt alive. And all this was done by a man who was styled, The darling of mankind! Thus were the Jews miserably tormented, and distributed over the Roman provinces; and continue to be distressed and dispersed over all the nations of the world to the present day. Jerusalem also was, according to the prediction of our Lord, to be trodden down by the Gentiles. Accordingly it has never since been in the possession of the Jews. It was first in subjection to the Romans, afterwards to the Saracens, then to the Franks, after to the Mamalukes, and now to the Turks. Thus has the prophecy of Christ been most literally and terribly fulfilled, on a people who are still preserved as continued monuments of the truth of our Lord's prediction, and of the truth of the Christian religion. See more in Bp. Newton's Dissert. vol. ii. p. 291,

Oh, I think they remembered this event quite well. Assuming they survived of course. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Really? And no recorded history of this blessed event by them.

I'll tell you what Grasshopper; if you quit lying by calling me a follower of Jack Van Impe, I won't call you a follower of the Roman Catholic Church. You know, they share the same preterist view as you do. (unless of course you are one).

BYW, since you are not a dispy, I was wondering where you are holding your animal sacrifices? Or has that dispensation been done away with?

 

The destruction of Jerusalem is well documented. Provided of course one wants to know.

No they don't.

Brilliant.

I guess most scholars pre-1900 have the same problem I do.

So I guess you take Is 13:10 literally. I don't really know since you don't want to deal with the OT texts.