Eternal Life vs Life Eternal

[steaver]

HP: It is one thing to call something a half truth and yet another to logically or Scripturally set forth evidence that it is.

Amen! Practice what you preach brother :thumbs:

I see nothing in your post to establish your remark other than you saying it is so.

Act 17:29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Act 17:30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Thus, what you said would be certainly right, obedience is antecedent to conversion. As long as you define obedience as I said above and not obedience to God's laws.

I will add here....Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.....I assumed you already agreed to this so i did not post the refference.

After one repents (turns to Jesus Christ) through obedience to God's word to do so, then and only then will God regenerate the soul and give the soul the eternal seal of the Holy Spirit.

Then obedience to Jesus' commands is an attribute of the born-again believer in Christ. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works (Eph 2:10).

We become "in Christ" and have a new heart created for Christ.

Quote:
Steaver: Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.




HP: As I recall it was you in a former post, was it not, that mentioned the following verse? Jas 3:1 ¶ My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

I do not remember you responding to the statement I made at that time. Could you tell the list just which one of these verse you believe is truth, or reconcile the two in light of the first one you mentioned above? Thanks.

HP: In consideration of the false notion by some on this list that the ONLY damning sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ, I fail to see any relevance. Why don’t you know that there is NO condemnation to those that are believers…, at least to some, again on this list? Are you now to tell us differently? Possibly ‘brethren’ does not indicate believers? I for one would believe that you have some serious thought to do on this verse before you start applying it to those opposed to the notions you are purporting.

Once before I took the time to show you how the Greek uses differing words for differing applications that the English may translate as one in the same. Its not that the translating is wrong, it is the fact that the translating into English word for word sometimes requires the same English word applied for two slightly differing in definition Greek words. As a bible student who has set his heart on rightly dividing the word of truth, the student MUST use a Greek and Hebrew concordance before coming to any conclusions of applying a passage to the Christian life.

With that said, and I pray you will not ignore this exhortation as you did when I showed you this back when you wanted to apply the "damnation" of 1Tim 5:12 to the believer as a damnation to everlasting hell, I will indeed explain to the list the difference between the "condemnation" of Ro 8 and the "condemnation" of Jas 3.

Ro 8's "condemnation" is the Greek word "katakrima". This means "an adverse sentence" . It is speaking of a person being "sentenced". The believer here "shall not receive an adverse sentence". It is a "sentencing". We know this sentencing is everlasting hell because of this word used in other passages that clearly contexually express such (I did not look them up, anyone can using a concordance and do so)

Jas 3's "condemnation" is the Greek word "krima". This means a "decision" and as the context indicates it is an unfavorable one however it is not an "adverse sentencing" as spoken of in Ro 8.

There is good reason for God using different words for different context. That is because words matter, words carry different meaning of applications. We know that believers have a judgment to partake in "for we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ"(Ro 14, 2co 5) We know this is not a judgment for heaven verses hell but a judgment of wiorks. Anyone who does not know this needs to go back to bible 101 and start over on their learning.

When "rightly dividing the word of truth" one will discover that Romans 8 is speaking about the condemnation to everlasting torment, an "adverse sentencing". One will also discover that James is speaking of the brethern's judgment of deeds and works, a decision by Jesus as to what works are good and will remain and what works are bad and is burned in the fire. "Yet he himself will be saved".

If you are serious about "rightly dividing the word of truth" and will decide to do so at the cost of having your views and positions challenged and conformed to God's word, you will have peace and pleasure in learning from God. It is a hard thing to cast off the things one has solidly embraced as truth, but it is liberating and heartwarming to feel the love of God that rushes through your being when you submit to His word on the matters and just let Him be the master teacher. If a dearly held doctrine must die, then prasie God so beit! I was liberated about nine years ago now and never felt so alive in Christ!

It's ALL about Jesus brother! ALL about Jesus! He saves and maintains our salvation. We merely work it out with fear and trembling! What an awesome God we serve!

Now, will you HP acknowledge that the English word "condemnation" carries differing meanings according to the original Greek and according to context? That one must research the Greek and apply the word as to the context of the passage?

Please! raying:

:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Now, will you HP acknowledge that the English word "condemnation" carries differing meanings according to the original Greek and according to context? That one must research the Greek and apply the word as to the context of the passage?

HP: Lets follow Steaver's logic logic for a minute.

Steaver: Ro 8's "condemnation" is the Greek word "katakrima". This means "an adverse sentence" . It is speaking of a person being "sentenced". The believer here "shall not receive an adverse sentence". It is a "sentencing". We know this sentencing is everlasting hell because of this word used in other passages that clearly contexually express such (I did not look them up, anyone can using a concordance and do so)

HP: Here is the verse in question again. Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The author here specifies only one group of individuals that have no condemnation. It is those that are ‘walking after the Spirit.’ Steaver says that in this verse it speaks of an ‘adverse sentence.’ Tell us Steaver why one should not, according to this text, believe that one that has been a believer but is not walking after the Spirit would not be in danger of an ‘adverse sentence’ just the same as a sinner that is not walking after the Spirit? Between what lines in this passage does it eliminate one that has believed at one point in time from condemnation, which you yourself admit that it indicates an adverse sentence? Where does the verse say or imply your conclusion that the believer “shall not receive an adverse sentence?” It would seem to indicate to me the exact opposite possibility as you are claiming.

Here is a hint for the reader. Steaver has done what every OSAS proponent does at every turn, i.e., insert the presupposition of OSAS into any and every text at will, when the fact is that the text does not state or imply any such Calvinistic notion.

 

[steaver]

HP; The author here specifies only one group of individuals that have no condemnation. It is those that are ‘walking after the Spirit.’

Yes, those that are 'in Christ Jesus' walk after the Spirit. The Author is giving an attribute of those who are in Christ Jesus. He goes on to clarify in verse Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

One does not go in and out of death and life. Jesus said 'ye must be born-again' which is receiving the Holy Spirit rebirth into Christ. Once born again the Spirit is life in you.

You would believe that as one who has been born again sins they fall back into condemnation. This is false as verse 9 indicates 'the body is dead because of sin; BUT the Spirit is life because of righteousness' (the righteousness of Christ, not your own).

Steaver says that in this verse it speaks of an ‘adverse sentence.’ Tell us Steaver why one should not, according to this text, believe that one that has been a believer but is not walking after the Spirit would not be in danger of an ‘adverse sentence’ just the same as a sinner that is not walking after the Spirit?

Do you see how you are spinning the text into a negative? Just read what it says without presuming a believer also has a non-walking after the Spirit attribute. The Author is talking about the positive attribute of the believer. The Author specifically takes care of the non-walking after the Spirit person within the entire passage, it is those not having the Spirit of Christ!

Believers DO walk after the Spirit. It is an attribute. IF one says they are a believer but does not walk after the Spirit then they obviously do not have the Spirit, they have never been born-again as verse 8 declares..'Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his..If you do not have the Spirit you CANNOT walk after the Spirit. It would be impossible!

Between what lines in this passage does it eliminate one that has believed at one point in time from condemnation, which you yourself admit that it indicates an adverse sentence?

Rom 8:1¶[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You need not read between the lines. Just read what the verse says. "Who walk not after the flesh" is a description of "them which are in Christ Jesus". Those "in the flesh" (unregenerated) cannot please God, they are enemies of Christ.

Rom 8:7Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Do you see this little tid bit of information? The unregenerated mind is not capable of being subject to God's law, it needs the Spirit of Christ indwellment.

Where does the verse say or imply your conclusion that the believer “shall not receive an adverse sentence?” It would seem to indicate to me the exact opposite possibility as you are claiming.

Where does it say or imply the believer shall? Who here is presumming more than the passage states?

Rom 8:1¶[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Here is a hint for the reader. Steaver has done what every OSAS proponent does at every turn, i.e., insert the presupposition of OSAS into any and every text at will, when the fact is that the text does not state or imply any such Calvinistic notion.

Did I? Or is it you who are inserting a presupposition into the text?

The passage seems pretty straightforward to me. It even allows for the pretender a warning...'Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his..

It describes those who do have the Spirit quite thoroughly. He begins with "[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

He goes on with..."That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Again we see "us" (the saved, in Christ) 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit'.

He goes on with "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

'They that are after the Spirit' . Now who are they that are after the Spirit? The Author clarifies...."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Those having the Spirit of God indwellment are those who have no condemnation. The Author even clarifies this with a negative opposite "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Born-again verses not born again.

If we are to interpret this passage as you would have us then we would have to conclude that the Spirit is jumping in and out of the believer's life as he walks carnally minded and spiritually minded from day to day. Nowhere can one honestly conclude such a thing without a presumpposition. Just read the passage for what it is, no inserting, no twisting or turning.

:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Believers DO walk after the Spirit.

HP: Are you certain of that? I have been told that all believers are liars, they sin every day in thought word and deed, they can commit adultery, murder, cheat, and steal, and none of these things have any effect upon their relationship with God. OSAS you know. Strange ‘Spirit walking’ to me…. and to Scripture as well. 1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

 

[steaver]

HP: Are you certain of that?

I believe you are confusing "walking after the Spirit" with a believer sinning verses not sinning. The passage makes the context perfectly clear that Paul is speaking about believers verses non-believers. Believers having the Spirit and thus walking after the Spirit as opposed to having not the Spirit and walking after the flesh. Here is why I come to this conclusion;

Rom 8:4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Here is two categories of people spoken of. Is it two categories of believers? I believe not because he goes on with more clarification;

Rom 8:6For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Rom 8:7Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Ro 8:7 here clearly indicates a lost person. A lost soul has a carnal mind, it is not subject to the law of God as is a believer's mind, nor indeed can it be, obviously because it lacks the Spirit of Christ as is told as we go on;

Rom 8:8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ro 8:9 is the nail in the coffin. If God dwells in you (born-again), you are in the Spirit. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is lost.

Then the conclusion;

Rom 8:14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And the chapter goes on to declare the destiny of those born of God.

I have been told that all believers are liars, they sin every day in thought word and deed, they can commit adultery, murder, cheat, and steal, and none of these things have any effect upon their relationship with God. OSAS you know.

You didn't believe them, did you? Sin in a believer's life certainly does effect the relationship with God. It just doesn't effect one's salvation by grace through faith.

Strange ‘Spirit walking’ to me…. and to Scripture as well. 1Co 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

The "unrighteous" are lost. So do not do what they do. It will only bring you sorrows.

:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: The "unrighteous" are lost. So do not do what they do. It will only bring you sorrows.

HP: The fruits of opon disbedience and sin are eternal punishment, not merely sorrows. The individual that claim to love God and yet does not the things God demands of him is as vulnerrable to being lost in the end as the worst sinner. Lu 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Thanks BR, wherever you are, for etching that last passage as frontlets before our eyes. May we all be found to be among those that in the last day are found standing before a Holy and Just God in judgment, to be counted as one of those that heeded the warnings and are found with Christ as our Advocate!

 

[steaver]

HP: The fruits of open disbedience and sin are eternal punishment, not merely sorrows.

Rom 8:1¶[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I believe you are confusing "walking after the Spirit" with a believer sinning verses not sinning. The passage makes the context perfectly clear that Paul is speaking about believers verses non-believers. Believers having the Spirit and thus walking after the Spirit as opposed to having not the Spirit and walking after the flesh. Here is why I come to this conclusion;

Rom 8:4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Here is two categories of people spoken of. Is it two categories of believers? I believe not because he goes on with more clarification;

Rom 8:6For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.


Rom 8:7Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Ro 8:7 here clearly indicates a lost person. A lost soul has a carnal mind, it is not subject to the law of God as is a believer's mind, nor indeed can it be, obviously because it lacks the Spirit of Christ as is told as we go on;

Rom 8:8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Ro 8:9 is the nail in the coffin. If God dwells in you (born-again), you are in the Spirit. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is lost.

Then the conclusion;

Rom 8:14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

And the chapter goes on to declare the destiny of those born of God.

God Bless! :thumbs: