"Eternal life" - what Calvinists don't want you to know

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
You say we are 'saved by Grace', I challenge you on that!

johnp's answer was good, so I will repeat it. Eph 2:8 (Sorry john, gotta use what works.) [Smile]

I take your statement to be a statement of your own personal belief.

No, actually I was using God's statement... What was that verse johnp??? Oh ya... Eph 2:8

But OSAS??? I saw no red ink there in Eph 2:8, so it could not have been Jesus who said it!

Ya know, your right! Hmmm... Maybe we sould try... 2 timothy 3:16</font>[/QUOTE]Well here we are with the old dilemma Ephesians 2:8&9 VS 2 Timothy 3:14-16. Both written by the same author, both are in the word of God, yet one says we are "saved by grace" (according to Calvinist's) while the other says "Salvation is through FAITH". Now what do we do with this problem, the same guy saying two different things! When our own local pastors do that we run them out of town on a rail. But yet, Calvinist's use both to prove their false doctrines. Well, we could let well enough alone and let them go blindly on their way, or we could take a few moments to show them that they misinterpret Ephesians 2:8,9 which should be read as: "While God is being gracious to mankind, mankind is saved through faith..." You see, Calvinist's, who do not have a definition for Grace and cannot explain its essence, insist that grace has some mysterious power to save. They completely overlook the fact that being in the image of God, all humanity also has grace as an attribute, and that if grace saves, every man should be able to save himself. But alas, the Calvinist cannot prove that grace has any power to save. At least they haven't done so on this BBS.

That leaves us with FAITH, and there does not seem to be any dispute that man must have FAITH in God in order to be saved. Please notice that I did not say that FAITH saves, but that we must have FAITH in order to be saved. So, what saves us? I say "what" because Grace is a what, and so is FAITH. Is it a "what" that saves us or is it a Who? God...you know the one that the bible is all about...is the Who that Saves, and he says throughout his Word that we humans must have FAITH in order to be saved BY Him.

2 Timothy 3:14-16. You must keep to what you have been taught and know to be true; remember who your teachers were, and how, ever since you were a child, you have known the holy scriptures, from these you can learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and useful for refuting error, for guiding people's lives and teaching them to be upright. This is how someone who is dedicated to God becomes fully equipped and ready for any good work.

It is "wisdom derived from the scripture that leads to salvation through faith". You know this one...Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Are the pieces of the puzzle coming together yet?

If ALL scripture is inspired, why do you insist on using tidbits of the whole to formulate your doctrines? Is that not doing what you accuse me of doing?

Why is it that the "Debunkers of Calvinism" absolutely refuse to address Romans chapter 8 verses 28, 29, & 30..?

Well OSAS, Sit down, Fasten your seat belt, and prepare for a revelation!

Romans 8:28-30. We are well aware that God works with those who love him, those who have been called in accordance with his purpose, and turns everything to their good. He decided beforehand who were the ones destined to be moulded to the pattern of his Son, so that he should be the eldest of many brothers; it was those so destined that he called; those that he called, he justified, and those that he has justified he has brought into glory.

Who is Paul Talking about?

The prayer of Jesus (John 17)
After saying this, Jesus raised his eyes to heaven and said:Father, the hour has come: glorify your Son so that your Son may glorify you; so that, just as you have given him power over all humanity, he may give eternal life to all those you have entrusted to him. And eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I have glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. Now, Father, glorify me with that glory I had with you before ever the world existed.

I have revealed your name to those whom you took from the world to give me. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now at last they have recognized that all you have given me comes from you. for I have given them the teaching you gave to me, and they have indeed accepted it and know for certain that I came from you, and have believed that it was you who sent me. It is for them that I pray. I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.

All I have is yours and all you have is mine, and in them I am glorified. I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep those you have given me true to your name, so that they may be one like us. While I was with them, I kept those you had given me true to your name. I have watched over them and not one is lost except one who was destined to be lost, and this was to fulfil the scriptures.

But now I am coming to you and I say these things in the world to share my joy with them to the full. I passed your word on to them, and the world hated them, because they belong to the world no more than I belong to the world. I am not asking you to remove them from the world, but to protect them from the Evil One. They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. Consecrate them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world, and for their sake I consecrate myself so that they too may be consecrated in truth.

I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me. May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me. I have given them the glory you gave to me, that they may be one as we are one. With me in them and you in me, may they be so perfected in unity that the world will recognize that it was you who sent me and that you have loved them as you have loved me.

Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, so that they may always see my glory which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. Father, Upright One, the world has not known you, but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent me. I have made your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and so that I may be in them.

The proof of Romans 8:28-30 is found in John 17. YOU cannot deny it!

But OSAS???? How?? What?? Why??

I dunno? God is awfully complex. All I know is that Jesus Christ (2nd Adam) is Lord and Savior, he died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins, he rose again 3 days later, and now God has reconciled himself to man. Ya see, the 1st Adam turned his back on God, so the 2nd Adam decided that he was going to extend a hand of reconciliation! Thanx Jesus!

Well OSAS if you "dunno" then you better not be teaching it! No, Jesus did not die on the cross for OSAS's sins, He died on the cross for the SIN of the World, the world that God so Loved. Do you understand the difference? Yes your sins are included in "the sins of the world" but Jesus did not die for you alone, he died to make it possible for you, among all mankind, to have life everlasting through your faith which cometh by hearing and the hearing from the word of God, not through predestination. He died IN LIEU OF you dying for your own sins. He paid the PENALTY FOR SIN by dying so that mankind need not die, but that through faith in Jesus, we have everlasting life!

Oh that Paul! Lets look at that secret book the "Non-Calvinist" says does not exist!

Jesus answered the rest of YOUR incorrect interpretation of Romans 8:28-30 in John 17.

Jesus has successfully refuted the Calvinist use of Romans 8:28-30! Believe it or not!

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

Ya know johnp, your simply not seeing the truth as it is laid out in front of you. It is you who serves a false god, not me.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

What annoys me about you is that you do not understand that Jesus did not die for "your" sins, but rather for SIN.

The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. He did not die for the sins of Eli's house did He? If He died for sin then that would have included Eli's house but Eli's house is mentioned specifically, it has not had it's sins atoned for. You are the blind one.

Jesus' sacrifice was not for johnp's individual sins...

Then I'm a dead man walking if I believed you. By the grace of God I believe Him. You think by what you do you save yourself but instead you just heap up more wrath.

...or for the sins of Jesus's sheep, or for the sins of "the elect", but for SIN, all the sin of the world. You suffer from spiritual myopia and will not do a self - diagnosis to see the truth!

1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
As to my myopia what? The word is ambiguous, liberality especially in a particular field, is your forte.

My Faith is in God the Father, Jesus who is God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, johnp,...

Wow! Keeping good company there I see. I never thought I'd see the day my name would be among the Great.
Your faith is in yourself. Your faith saves you not Jesus. He just enables you. Jesus and Saviour is meaningless to you because He is not your Saviour you are your saviour and a poor one at that. A saviour that does not save is the one you have trusted to your own destruction.

johnp.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi spoudazo;

I just sit back in amazement at how poorly you have handle the Word of God. How can you honestly name the name of Christ and yet wrest and twist His whole message?

So typical of Calvinist first attempt to convince by ripping scripture out of contex then in your next post blast him with a personal assault then run

Is your name Author Pink. or was it yellow

Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. He did not die for the sins of Eli's house did He? If He died for sin then that would have included Eli's house but Eli's house is mentioned specifically, it has not had it's sins atoned for. You are the blind one.

And that just proves my point.
Jesus did not die for individual humans, but for SIN! He died to pay the Penalty for sin, so that, whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Sin has no more power over man, Jesus defeated the power of sin and made it possible for mankind, all of whom sin unto death, to have everlasting life through their individual faith in Him.

Why are you not seeing that simple truth? What scripture can I post that will aid your understanding?

Then I'm a dead man walking if I believed you. By the grace of God I believe Him. You think by what you do you save yourself but instead you just heap up more wrath.

Wow! Keeping good company there I see. I never thought I'd see the day my name would be among the Great.
Your faith is in yourself. Your faith saves you not Jesus. He just enables you. Jesus and Saviour is meaningless to you because He is not your Saviour you are your saviour and a poor one at that. A saviour that does not save is the one you have trusted to your own destruction.

First, I hope that you never believe IN ME, I am not the savior! I have no power to save. IT IS NOT ME THAT SAVES ME! IT IS GOD WHO SAVES ME, just as he saves you if you have faith in Him. All I have to offer Him is my faith in HIM! There is nothing more that I can offer Him than my faith and my Praise of and for HIM!

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

All I have to offer Him is my faith in HIM! There is nothing more that I can offer Him than my faith and my Praise of and for HIM!

Well that falls short if you don't mind me saying so. Your faith is a filthy rag and it will cause you to die forever. Not as you hope in an instant but forever dying.

First, I hope that you never believe IN ME

Rest assured Wes.

IT IS NOT ME THAT SAVES ME!

You deny that God saves you. Jesus saves nobody you say. Who else saves you if it isn't Jesus and it isn't you?

IT IS GOD WHO SAVES ME

No you do not believe this you believe your faith saves you man you keep telling us that the death of Christ saves no one.

All I have to offer Him is my faith in HIM!

He does not accept your offer. It stinks to Him and He is very wrathful towards those who face Him off.

...to have everlasting life through their individual faith in Him...

You make words mean anything you want them to mean but they retain their own shape regardless of you. Everlasting life begins now and it only begins by grace not effort.
Belief is a work so you fall outside the Kingdom and you are not forgiven. Belief is a work regardless of your belief. Your belief that it is no effort to believe shows how far off the mark you are.
It is by grace that man is saved.
It is by works that Wes was not.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Well that falls short if you don't mind me saying so. Your faith is a filthy rag and it will cause you to die forever. Not as you hope in an instant but forever dying.

If you knew your bible, you would have said that my righteousness is as filthy rags, and I would agree with you. However scripture says it is our Faith that is acceptable to God, not our righteousness.

I don't know what game you are playing johnp but unless you're born again in the spirit you will surely die. A DDiv candidate should know that! but obviously you don't, so I must question your DDiv candidacy.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

...so I must question your DDiv candidacy.

I don't mind. What do you want to know?

I don't know what game you are playing johnp...

I'm getting the impression it might be ping pong! What game you playing and if it's not table tennis why did you just pong me?

I love the rough and tumble!

I don't know what game you are playing johnp but unless you're born again in the spirit you will surely die.

Why should I need to be born again in the spirit? I thought you said the spirit was alive already in man? Gotcha! Right between the eyes! Can the spirit be alive twice at the same time?

A DDiv candidate should know that!

What is a DDiv?

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

I'm getting the impression it might be ping pong! [Cool] What game you playing and if it's not table tennis why did you just pong me?

It seems that discussing religion with you is like bouncing a ball off a wall, hense Pong, no ping to it!

 

[johnp.]

You hope to miss the barb but it is in is it not?

Why should I need to be born again in the spirit? I thought you said the spirit was alive already in man? Gotcha! Right between the eyes! Can the spirit be alive twice at the same time?
Should I call your local DDiv repair man for you or can you manage that yourself?

johnp.

 

[OSAS]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Well here we are with the old dilemma Ephesians 2:8&9 VS 2 Timothy 3:14-16. Both written by the same author, both are in the word of God, yet one says we are "saved by grace" (according to Calvinist's) while the other says "Salvation is through FAITH". Now what do we do with this problem, the same guy saying two different things!

No, no, no...

Saved "By" Grace.
Salvation "Through" Faith.

I hate to keep repeating myself, but one thing has to be made clear...

If we got what we had coming to us, we would ALL be in HELL.

The 1st Adam's Sin, brought about spiritual death.

Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The 2nd Adam's taking the 1st Adam's SIN upon the cross in our stead, saves us from spiritual death.

John 19:30 "When he had received the drink, Jesus said, It is finished. With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Adam in the garden of eden turned his back on God.

Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

God then turned his back on Adam.

Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Creator and Creation are now at odds with each other.
What is to stop God from saying... "To hell with you! You broke the rules, now you must suffer the punishment."
Adam turned his back on God, God does not have to reconcile if He chooses not to.

Philippians 2:13 "for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

But God decided in his infinte mercy to extend His "Grace" to us, He decides to reconcile, He decides to spare man from punishment. He decides that it is for His good pleasure that man be saved from himself.

Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

If we got what we had coming to us, we would ALL be in HELL.

But no... God says "I will reconcile, I will offer my hand out to man who has failed me.

Lets look at that offer...

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

But yet, Calvinist's use both to prove their false doctrines. Well, we could let well enough alone and let them go blindly on their way, or we could take a few moments to show them that they misinterpret Ephesians 2:8,9 which should be read as: "While God is being gracious to mankind, mankind is saved through faith..." You see, Calvinist's, who do not have a definition for Grace and cannot explain its essence, insist that grace has some mysterious power to save. They completely overlook the fact that being in the image of God, all humanity also has grace as an attribute, and that if grace saves, every man should be able to save himself. But alas, the Calvinist cannot prove that grace has any power to save. At least they haven't done so on this BBS.

Shall we look at that which you claim the house of Calvin misinterprets?

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

God says what he means, and he means what he says.
Where is the misinterpretation?

God gives the gift of Grace, God's Grace saves, not anything man has done. My "Faith" cannot save me, if that were true, who is God to offer a worthless Grace I have no use for?????

Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

That leaves us with FAITH, and there does not seem to be any dispute that man must have FAITH in God in order to be saved.

Whoa thar Seabiscuit! Yer headed for the finish line, and the jockey is still in the gate!

Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

How can I possibly have Faith being unsaved, when I have turned my back on God from the beginning?

Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

"Faith" is installed by the Holy Spirit at regeneration. It is through my "Faith", installed by the Holy Spirit at regeneration that keeps me saved! We shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

but that we must have FAITH in order to be saved. So, what saves us?

Grace saves us. Haven't you been paying attention?

God's Grace is worthless if I need Faith in order to be saved. Who is God to offer something as worthless as Grace if I am not in need of it, who is God to think that He has the power to save me, if I can simply save myself with Faith?

Who needs Jesus? His death was worthless, I can simply save myself with Faith!

Omniscient? Omnipresent? Omnipotent? Who is God here? Me, or Him? If it is by Faith, I sure don't need him sticking his nose in my business!

Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Well OSAS, Sit down, Fasten your seat belt, and prepare for a revelation!

Engines at full, phasers on stun, ready when you are captain!

The prayer of Jesus (John 17) The proof of Romans 8:28-30 is found in John 17. YOU cannot deny it!

I said I did deny it? in John 17 Jesus reassures us that He knows those that are His! I have maintained that all along!

God knows those that are His, and those who are not His, He never knew. That was a "revelation"????

Jesus has successfully refuted the Calvinist use of Romans 8:28-30! Believe it or not!

Where? I never saw it? All I saw was God saying what he meant, and meaning what he said.

Your not going to tell me the bible is not infallable, and the bible is not inerrant are you?

No wonder the straw man in the wizard of oz was always so tired, he sure does get alot of use!

 

[johnp.]

Hello OSAS.

Engines at full, phasers on stun, ready when you are captain!

Anything can happen in the next half hour! Twilight Zone up ahead.

What's a DDiv man and can one be accused of it?

johnp.

 

[OSAS]

Originally posted by johnp.:
What's a DDiv man and can one be accused of it?

I dunno, but I think they make a cream for it if it keeps itching.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Why should I need to be born again in the spirit? I thought you said the spirit was alive already in man? Gotcha! [Cool] Right between the eyes! Can the spirit be alive twice at the same time?

Since the spirit 'doesn't die', it must be metaphor to say it does. Thus man must die to self in order to be 'reborn' for another. It is clear that God does not want man to have two Gods, God and Self. God is a jealous God and demands of us that we place our trust in Him ALONE. I do!

 

[Bro. James]

Greetings JohnP,

I may be wrong, but a DDiv is someone like Nicodemus in the Gospel of John, Ch. 3. He was an unregenerated Bible scholar--a Master of Israel. Such people are the "blind leading the blind". They have awesome worldly credentials, many are "Right Reverend Doctors", but have not been "born again"--a fatal flaw in terms of spiritual discernment.

Keep "The Faith" Brother.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Wes Outwest]

Bro. James, That is a very astute definition, thanks!

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

[Greetings]Bro. James, That is a very astute definition, thanks!

So OSAS was wrong and it's not a cream to stop itching, shame that, I could have done with some for my ears.

Since the spirit 'doesn't die'...

But it is dead on account of sin and you have failed to show otherwise.
I said; "Why should I need to be born again in the spirit? I thought you said the spirit was alive already in man? Gotcha! Right between the eyes! Can the spirit be alive twice at the same time?
Your answer is that we must die first to be born again? Unless a man's spirit dies first he cannot be born again seems a novel twist and not worthy of respect I think. But this death that the man's spirit must die is not really death because 'the spirit 'doesn't die'' but is a metaphor for death. Is that right? So this death is not death and so the man does not have to be reborn again because he never really died but metaphorically. In which case the man is not born again but metaphorically because if he was truly born again then there would be two live spirits in him!

So I ask you again; "Why should I need to be born again in the spirit? I thought you said the spirit was alive already in man? Gotcha! Right between the eyes! Can the spirit be alive twice at the same time?

What you think? Am I right? Since you say that the death of the spirit is only metaphor you deny the rebirth which must only be metaphor.
If the tree is bad it's fruit must be bad.

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Since Jesus tells us it is spirit that brings life, the flesh has nothing to offer, I go with Jesus. I believe the human spirit is not dead, in the sense of "lifeless" or not having life. For without a living spirit the human flesh is dead. If the spirit is dead, and the flesh is dead, I sure see a lot of dead men walking.

The spirit of man is alive, but separated from God by sin. Jesus atoned for sin so that man, through faith in Jesus Christ, can live, and in living is restored in relationship to God the father.

NO! johnp, you'll never be right until you submit your spirit to the Christ. Your tree will never produce good fruit either.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

The spirit of man is alive, but separated from God by sin.

That is the definition of a dead spirit. Anything seperated from God is dead.

johnp.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Wes;
Don't give him to much meat it's not good for babes.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

[rc]

Still waiting ILL !!!

Come on ! Show me how much you ACTUALLY know about this subject!! I'm going to hound you till you show me. ILL... every post! On every topic I'm going to hound you, I've cought you in a lie and am going to hold you accountable brother! And this is just typical of your Bible study also.. making unlearned claims as fact with no truth or proper study to back it up. Which council condemns Calvinism? ...

Where are you ILL ?