Eternal or kingdom Salvation Mt. 24:13

[Pastor Larry]

Well I believe the bible. I believe the bible says that if I believe on Christ, I'll be raised up on the last day. I also believe the bible says that if I deny Christ, He will deny me. Someone who thinks one can't believe and deny at the same time need only look to Peter.

Or perhaps studying the context would be helpful to figure out that what Peter did was not what Christ was talking about elsewhere.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Good works do not secure our place in the Kingdom.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


Acts 14:21-22
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Good works show that we are already Children of the Kingdom.

Hebrews 12:14-17

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Esau didn't lose sonship. He even recieved a blessing. But he lost the first born blessing.

The security of our Kingdom position is assured IN Christ Jesus as we are ALREADY seated with Christ in the Heavenlies, BEING heirs (His Children) and Joint-heirs...

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


Conditional Crown=conditional kingdom. (Can't have one without the other!)


James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.


Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


1 Corinthians 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Or perhaps studying the context would be helpful to figure out that what Peter did was not what Christ was talking about elsewhere.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 26:70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest

Matthew 26:72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man..

Matthew 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

Context? It's not that complicated.

 

[TCGreek]

So, did Jesus give unsaved people (those who are not in the family) the power to heal and to cast out demons?

Since Jesus said that Satan cannot cast out Satan, did he err and mean to say, "Satan usually cannot cast out Satan"?

A person would have to decide based on his or her soteriology.

What does it mean to perish? How does one who doesn't have a life lose it?

What is "saved"?





The salvation of the soul is rewards. It's the saving of the life of the individual.

The saving of the spirit is what puts him into a position to receive (or not) rewards.

An person not in the family is not eligible for an inheritance at all.

I do not see that distinction between soul and spirit salvation in Scripture. You would have to demonstrate that to me.

The only distinction I see is between a person's rewards and the person (1 Cor 3:13-15).

 

[Hope of Glory]

Esau didn't lose sonship. He even recieved a blessing. But he lost the first born blessing.

Wanted to point out that being "first born" is position within the family, but not based simply on birth order. Jesus was first born from among the dead, yet he was not the first person resurrected.

"First" is not necessarily numerical in order, but "better".

 

[Hope of Glory]

I do not see that distinction between soul and spirit salvation in Scripture. You would have to demonstrate that to me.

If people would see the distinction, then most of the OSAS arguments, plus what it takes to be saved, etc., would disappear.

What must I do to be saved? Believe [aorist; punctiliar, mental assent] on the Lord Jesus and you will [indicative; it will happen] be saved.

Yet, elsewhere, there are all sorts of things such as repentance that are thrown into the mix.

Many are called, but few are called out.

He died that all might be saved, but his blood was shed for many.

We are saved spiritually forever and ever simply by accepting his substitutionary death on the cross. That cannot be rescinded, forfeited, or any other way twisted to say anything else. No "really and truly" saved, etc.

This is when we are born from above (not born again) into the family of God. Just like a human baby, we cannot be unborn. But, just like a human baby, this is just the beginning of our lives, and just like a human baby, we can perish.

Does this mean that we can become unsaved, or does it mean something else?

What is aionian life?

But, "saved" is used several different ways in Scripture. Matthew 8:25 says, "And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. [we are perishing]"

I think the picture that we are given in the OT is the best example of this.

The children of Israel were given two Promised Lands.

One is in Genesis 15:18, and is generally ignored by people when they say "Promised Land": "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:"

So, Israel was given a Promised Land, based upon nothing other than being in the family. Before they even left Goshen, they were in the Promised Land.

But, there is a second Promised Land, the one that most people refer to when they say "Promised Land", and that land is the land flowing with milk and honey. It is promised based upon doing some things. They had to journey through the wilderness, they were baptized in the Red Sea, they had to remain faithful, etc.

The children of Israel who fell in the wilderness because of unfaithfulness were, in type, saved. But, they did not receive the better part of their inheritance (the land flowing with milk and honey), which is, in type, a picture of the Kingdom.

John 3:3 says, "Unless a man be born from above [not born again], he cannot see the Kingdom." Moses got to see the Kingdom.

John 3:5 says, "Unless a man be born of water and spirit [some mss have "born again" here], he cannot enter the Kingdom."

An entrance takes works: Baptism, faithfulness, etc. Moses, because of striking the rock twice was not permitted to enter the Kingdom.

This is what the saving of the soul, or life is about.

 

[Hope of Glory]

[Hebrews 10:37-39] The words, "any man," have been introduced by the King James translators as the subject of "draw back," but the "just man" is the subject. An unbeliever cannot draw back from living for the Lord, but a saved man can. An unbeliever cannot live for self and lose his rewards, but a saved man can. An unbeliever cannot appear at the judgment seat of Christ without any good works (works of gold, silver, or precious stones), an unbeliever cannot suffer loss, and an unbeliever cannot be saved as though by fire; but a saved person can. The drawing back to destruction is not to everlasting damnation but is to the loss of the soul, which is plainly revealed in [Matthew 16:24-27].

When Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior returns for those who are his, those who have chosen to lose their souls, or lives, for His sake shall receive rewards; but those who have chosen to save their lives, or souls, for self shall lose their rewards. A Christian cannot lose his salvation, but he can lose his rewards. [Romans 8:38-39: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.]

The saving of the soul is something future and is conditioned upon the behavior of you yourself. Everlasting, or spiritual salvation is the gift of God and can never, under any circumstances be lost or forfeited; but the saving of the soul is distinctly set forth in the Bible, not as a gift, but as a reward to be earned by diligence, faithfulness, and obedience to His commands.

Failure to distinguish between soul and spirit has caused a lot of people a lot of problems; it has caused many people to err and make shipwreck of their faith; it’s not that they are lost, but that they may experience the tragedy of having their spirits and bodies saved but their souls lost. You may ask, “Aren’t the soul and the spirit the same?” Absolutely not! That is the teaching of natural evolutionists. The Bible teaches us that the soul is the natural life of the man; it’s the self-life. It is the sum total of the experiences that pertain to the man himself; it’s his own separate personality. It is the life he lives daily after he is saved. He can live for the Lord or he can live for the world, the flesh, and the devil. The way you live your life can result in rewards or losses.

[1 Peter 1:5, 9] The salvation that is to be revealed in the end time is that of the soul; it has to do with rewards. [1 Peter 1:17; so that you may be behaving properly at the end of the verse] The fear of the Lord is what determines your walk. Do you fear the Lord? 2 Corinthians 5:11 says, “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men [to watch and be found faithful].” This fear will be manifested at the Judgment Seat of Christ. [1 Peter 2:11, 12]

I want us to look at some unfaithful servants. They are in terrible plights, but the important thing to remember is that they are all servants of the Lord, and not lost people:

• [Matthew 5:20] One whose righteousness does not exceed that of the Pharisees.
• [Matthew 22:1-14] One who was at the wedding feast but had no wedding garment.
• [Matthew 25:1-13] The five who had no oil in their lamps; they were careless and did not carry an extra supply.
• [Matthew 25:14-30] The one who appeared at the Judgment Seat but had done nothing for the Lord.
• [Luke 12:42-49] The servant who knew his master’s will but did not do it.
• [Galatians 5:17-21] Those who yield to works of the flesh instead of being led by the Spirit.

These are all representing saved people. These are righteous people, although their righteousness does not exceed that of the Pharisees. One who was at the wedding feast; he had no wedding garment, but he was there! Virgins; do you think God refers to the unsaved as virgins? Virgins are righteous. The unsaved are going to hell! One who appeared at the Judgment Seat; do the lost appear at the Judgment Seat? A servant, who belongs to the master. These are not lost people!

Do not make the common mistake of confusing the Kingdom with common salvation; they are different. The Kingdom, refers to the Millennial reign of the Lord Jesus Christ! All of the warnings and exhortations and promises that we looked at in the previous passages pertain to Christians! And they pertain only to Christians! They pertain to those who in this lifetime are granted the opportunity to qualify for a position or place in the Kingdom by living a faithful and obedient life. Do you want a position of honor in the coming Kingdom?

The full and proper impact of these passages is completely obliterated by preachers and teachers who apply them to a group that they like to call “professors, not possessors”. There’s no such thing in the Bible! These passages are clearly and plainly addressed to those who have accepted Jesus the Christ as their Savior. I often shudder to think of their responsibility at the Judgment Seat of Christ because they have promoted a laxity of life by teaching and encouraging Christians to disregard the multiple warnings given by God! Many people today teach that all Christians will be treated exactly the same; no matter how you live, you will be rewarded! That’s what they teach, and that’s teaching a license to sin, and it simply flies in the face of Scriptures!

[Hebrews 10:37-39] This passage of Scripture is speaking of the saving of the soul. 1 Peter 1:9, which we looked at a moment ago is also speaking of the saving of the soul. It says, “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.” [James 1:21] is also speaking of the saving of the soul. It seems strange that it is necessary to call a Christian’s attention to the fact that the spirit and the soul are not the same. Teaching that man is a dichotomous, or two-part, being is a fairly new teaching and is the result of evolutionary teaching. Natural evolution is unwittingly being taught from many pulpits today!

Man is a trichotomous being; he has three parts, not two. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul is speaking and he says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Hebrews 4:12 describes the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit by the Word of God. It says, “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

The salvation of the spirit takes place immediately and for the rest of eternity the moment you believe in the Lord Jesus as your personal savior. You believe once, and you’re saved forever! But, Romans 8:23 tells us that our bodies will not be redeemed until the resurrection and translation.

The salvation of the soul involves rewards for a life that is lived in obedience unto the honor and glory of the Lord. That life can be lost, even though your spirit and body are saved. Don’t take my word for it; I want you to see it in your Bible:

• [1 Corinthians 3:15] You can be saved as through fire, but suffer loss because your life was not lived unto the Lord.
• [Revelation 16:15] You can lose your garments if you are not faithful in keeping your garments. You won’t have anything to wear to the feast!
• [Revelation 3:11] You can lose your crown; if there is no crown, there can be no reigning with the Lord.
• [Matthew 25:28] This tells of the loss of the talent by the one who did not use it and therefore does not enter into the joy of the Lord as he reigns. Be sure and note that in verse 14, this servant with one talent is called “his own”; he’s a Christian!
• [Luke 19:24] The servant of the Lord who did not use his pound forfeited the pound and therefore was not appointed to reign over any cities. Reigning over a city has nothing to do with salvation at all. Otherwise, some of these servants are saved 10 times and some are being saved five times. Reigning over a city has to do with rewards for faithfulness!

 

[Hope of Glory]

[Hebrews 10:37-39] I want to point out that the one who is being discussed here is the just one; he’s a believer who is living a just life. What does it mean to live a just life? Luke 1:6, which is talking about Zechariah and Elizabeth says about them, “And they were both righteous (just) before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” A just person walks in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. A lost person cannot live a just life! Here, God says that if the just one (who is a believer) draws back, the Lord’s soul has no pleasure in him. In verse 39, you see that if the just draws back, it is unto destruction. It’s talking about the loss of the soul or the life in the age to come. This cannot be the destruction of the spirit, it cannot be the loss of salvation, and it has nothing to do with the body; it must therefore be the soul that is under discussion in this passage.

Look in the closing part of [verse 39: But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition [destruction]; but of them that believe [faith; noun] to the saving of the soul]. The just one, who is a believer, can be faithful; he can live an obedient life to the saving of his soul. You cannot draw back from spiritual salvation, but you can draw back from living a faithful and obedient life; you can live a carnal life, such as the Holy Spirit describes in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3; in other words, you can choose to be a spiritual infant all your life.

The key expression in the book of Hebrews is, “Let us go on to perfection”; let us go on to maturity; let us become full grown adults in Christ, not feeding continually on milk, but go on to the meat of the Word. The meat of the Word in the book of Hebrews, and for that matter everywhere in the Bible, is the teaching pertaining to the Kingdom and the possibility of ruling and reigning with the Lord. The sincere milk of the Word has to do with the simple gospel message; the sincere milk of the Word makes you wise unto salvation; the sincere milk of the Word is the food for babes in Christ. The meat of the Word will enable you to qualify for a position of honor; for ruling and reigning in the coming Kingdom of our Lord. The meat of the Word will let you grow up!

Now, I want you to keep in mind that in the Kingdom, there will be sovereigns and there will be subjects. The sovereigns will be those who have won crowns; they have run a successful race. The subjects will be those who are saved as though by fire, as it says in 1 Corinthians 3:15. Many people teach that we will all rule and reign in the coming Kingdom. Well, if we all rule and reign, who do we rule and reign over? When my cousins and I would fight over who was going to lead a game, my great-grandfather would say, “We can’t all be chiefs”. The Bible clearly teaches that there will be rulers and there will be subjects! And I don’t think we’re going to rule and reign over those who are in the lake of fire.

[Matthew 16] Spiritual salvation is taught as an event. But, once you’re saved, every place in Scripture that the salvation of the soul is mentioned, it is referred to as a future event. It’s a future event that is conditioned upon your life here in the flesh. [Matthew 16:24-27] “Whosoever will.” The saving of the life or the soul is determined by whether or not you will it. This applies to any Christian. The word “man” in verse 24 is in italics, which indicates to us that it is not in the original text; this word was added by the translators in order to clarify something, but as so often is the case, it muddies things up. In this verse, the people under discussion are the disciples. So, if word “man” should be omitted, and if a word needs to be supplied, then that word should be “disciple”. “If any disciple will come after me.” Remember, a disciple is a saved person. A disciple is someone who completely embraces the teachings of the one whom he is the disciple of. This is talking about a saved person, and it says, “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man disciple will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

As you read over this passage, you can clearly see that the result of the loss or saving of the soul has to do with rewards, as it says in verse 27. Is our spiritual salvation a reward? No, it’s a gift! The word that is translated as “life” in verse 25 and “soul” in verse 26 is the same Greek word (psuche). Spiritual salvation is a gift of God and can never, under any circumstances be lost, forfeited, given up, or taken away. However, salvation of the soul is dependent upon the individual; it’s dependent upon you. The salvation of the soul comes at the end of your Christian life, not at the beginning; spiritual salvation is at the beginning of your Christian life; it’s called “being born from above”. One of the goals of living a faithful life; on of the goals of faith in Jesus is the salvation of the soul, as we saw in 1 Peter 1:9. “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.”

Peter was writing of the saving of the soul to those who had already been begotten again, as we saw in 1 Peter 1:3. James writes in 1:21 of the saving of the souls of those who have already been begotten by the word of truth, as we saw in 1:18. Being born from above is a past experience for every individual who has believed on the Lord Jesus as his personal savior! The saving of the soul, which results in rewards, is a future experience, which will be determined at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

[2 Peter] In Philippians 2:12, Christians are urged, “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. Do you have to work out your spiritual salvation? Are you afraid that you’re not saved? By working out your salvation with fear and trembling, you will guarantee the salvation of your soul and you will receive rewards. In 2 Peter 1:10, we’re told, [2 Peter 1:10]. Give diligence to make your calling and election sure. Why? So you will not stumble and lose your rewards. Do you have to give diligence to make sure you’re saved? That would be a salvation by works. Give diligence so you will not stumble, and [2 Peter 1:11].

The salvation of your soul will guarantee unto you a place of honor, glory, crowns, and rewards in the coming Kingdom of our Lord. The loss of your soul will not result in banishment from the heavens; your position there is guaranteed by the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; the loss of your soul will result in you being a subject rather than a sovereign.

“Oh, just so that I get to heaven, that’s good enough for me.” I’ve heard that said by many people; they are simply seeking a fire insurance policy. We’re told to esteem the mind of Christ. We’re told to esteem knowledge. We’re told to esteem his commandments. We’re told to esteem the salvation of our souls. We’re commanded to esteem life in the coming age.

We’re told that if you don’t esteem life in the coming age, then you don’t esteem the Son; if you don’t esteem the Son, then you don’t esteem the Father. Brother, don’t turn up your nose at what God has commanded you to esteem. Esteem the Son, esteem the Father, and esteem the salvation of your soul.

If it is important to God, it should be important to you. If you esteem these things, then you have to live a life that is pleasing to Him.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The only distinction I see is between a person's rewards and the person (1 Cor 3:13-15).

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here is Salvation of the spirit. It is a dead spirit being quickened by Christ who is the quickening Spirit (1 Cor15:45)

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Matthew 10:37-39
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

And here are obvious instances of a conditional "salvation" available to those whose spirits have already been quickened.

Notice that all these scriptures are directly addressed to folks who are already saved.


lacy

 

[TCGreek]

Two questions: 1. Are we going to see Judas in new heaven and the new earth then? 2. Is there ever an intance when soul is used for spirit and vice versa?

A word is ultimately defined by its context and the theology that surrounds it. I get the impression that a person's spirit can be saved and his soul can be lost at the same time. What monstrosity are we dealing with? Are we dealing with a sci-fi salvation here?

 

[av1611jim]

TCGreek, greetings;
You call it a "mostrosity" because you do not understand it.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both did the same thing concerning the Trinity.
HOWEVER:
Calling a doctrine of God's a "monstrosity" because you do not understand it in no way makes it any less true.

 

[TCGreek]

TCGreek, greetings;
You call it a "mostrosity" because you do not understand it.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both did the same thing concerning the Trinity.
HOWEVER:
Calling a doctrine of God's a "monstrosity" because you do not understand it in no way makes it any less true.

What do I not understand? Where is Judas? Can my soul be in hell and my spirit be in heaven for all eternity? I have never seen that in the teaching of my Lord. Neither have I seen such in the Pauline corpus What am I missing? Is there a code?

 

[Hope of Glory]

What do I not understand? Where is Judas? Can my soul be in hell and my spirit be in heaven for all eternity? I have never seen that in the teaching of my Lord. Neither have I seen such in the Pauline corpus What am I missing? Is there a code?

"Hell" is an interesting word that many in Christendom have started using synonymously with "lake of fire".

The unsaved are going to the lake of fire. Forever and ever.

However, "hell" is a warning given to saved people.

So, either hell is not the lake of fire, or you can become unborn.

What does it mean to "perish"? What is it that you lose?

 

[TCGreek]

What does it mean to "perish"? What is it that you lose?

On the grounds of 1 Cor.1:18 "perishing" means to be lost and eternally separated from the presence of God in torment, whatever that means now.

"Perishing" refers to the whole of a person that is in a lost state, not soul being lost and spirit being saved monstrosity, as if we are engaging in some sci-fi world.

 

[Hope of Glory]

On the grounds of 1 Cor.1:18 "perishing" means to be lost and eternally separated from the presence of God in torment, whatever that means now.

"Perishing" refers to the whole of a person that is in a lost state, not soul being lost and spirit being saved monstrosity, as if we are engaging in some sci-fi world.

Mind backing up these thoughts?

(I can prove otherwise from Scripture, but I'll wait to let you finish what you were saying. Oh, and "some sci-fi world" is how I've heard the entire concept of Jesus' resurrection being explained by atheists before. Empty rhetoric.)

Edited to add: It will probably be very late this evening before I can get back, but it may be tomorrow.

 

[Accountable]

I love this doctrine because it satisfies my fleshly need to think I've added something to my own salvation. If I can't save myself eternally through works, at least I can convince myself that I can save myself into the kingdom through works.

Why would you even write such words? To believe that your entrance into the Kingdom and your rewards is soley based on your spiritual salvation by grace, you having a large task before you. An impossible task. That task would be to provide any scripture to back up your thoughts. Take time to prove your case that we may know.

 

[Accountable]

What do I not understand? Where is Judas? Can my soul be in hell and my spirit be in heaven for all eternity? I have never seen that in the teaching of my Lord. Neither have I seen such in the Pauline corpus What am I missing? Is there a code?

If Judas was and still is "lost," how will hit sit upon a throne in the Lords Kingdom as directly spoken by Jesus Christ Himself?

 

[TCGreek]

Mind backing up these thoughts?

All that I see in Paul, in my years of studying his writings, are two group of people in respect to the cross, those who are perishing and those who are being saved (1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 4:3-6).

"Those who are perishing" translates the articular present middle participle tois apollumenois, and the use of this participle is substantive, describing a class, namely, "those who are perishing." I am going to take Paul at his word unless Scripture elsewhere teaches otherwise.

I take Paul to mean a class of people, namely, "those who are perishing" over against "those who are being saved." Call me a simple, but that is how I see it.

I fail to see that "soul" refers to a person's rewards. I see no clear Scripture to back such an assertion. In Genesis 2:7, man becomes a "living soul", nephesh chayyah, while the LXX has psyche zosan. All with others, I think "living being", referring to the whole person is a better rendition. I have never seen any serious bible student take "soul" to refer to Adam's rewards.

Besides, when Jesus refers to a person "forfeiting his soul", like so many others I do not think he is referring to a person's rewards. Rather, being in the company of DA Carson and many others, "soul" here refers to one's life or self. And I rather be wrong in the company of men like Dr. Carson than fall for your position.

John says, "I saw underneath the altar the souls [psychas] of those who had been slain because of the word of God..." Call me simple, but John could not be speaking of "rewards" here.

I cannot believe what I have read that "hell" and the "lake of fire" are two different places. I always thought that the fire of hell that Jesus spoke so freely about in the Gospel narratives was a reference to the lake of fire. Once again, call me simple, but I will stick with so many others, pastors, theologians, scholars, commentators who have all taken it this way. I rather be wrong with them. Than fall for you view.

 

[Brother Bob]

Jhn 17:12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

perdition

One entry found for perdition. Main Entry: per·di·tion
Pronunciation: p&r-'di-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English perdicion, from Anglo-French perdiciun, Late Latin perdition-, perditio, from Latin perdere to destroy, from per- through + dare to give -- more at [SIZE=-1]PER-[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]DATE[/SIZE]
1 a archaic : utter destruction b obsolete : [SIZE=-1]LOSS[/SIZE]
2 a : eternal damnation b : [SIZE=-1]HELL[/SIZE]

Judas is lost to Jesus and Jesus is the only name given where a man can be saved. Seems to me he is lost and eternal damnation. Eternal means "no end to it".

Someone said he was going to sit upon throne, scripture please?

Does not surprise me though when doctrine has been advocated on BB that Christians can be murders, adulterers, theives, liars etc, you name it.

 

[npetreley]

Why would you even write such words? To believe that your entrance into the Kingdom and your rewards is soley based on your spiritual salvation by grace, you having a large task before you. An impossible task. That task would be to provide any scripture to back up your thoughts. Take time to prove your case that we may know.

It was satire.