Eternal or kingdom Salvation Mt. 24:13

[Brother Bob]

Then, you picked out one definition (that was a definition for use with another word, if I remember correctly) that was a secondary definition, then you posted Scriptures to "prove" your point, based on an assumption based on Strong's Concordance.

That is false, here is what I posted. The first is the scripture where Jesus called Judas the son of perdition.

The second is in Peter showing that reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

So, I used scripture to prove scripture which is much more than you are doing. You are using your Greek translator to do the talking for you.
Only problem you have is we have the translators also. I am leary of someone who always has to run to the Greek to try and support his theology.


Son of perdition.
perdition =
apōleia=
1) destroying, utter destruction
a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction
a) of money
b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell


Same word used in 2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men

But, "apoleia" is destruction. It can be argued that it's destruction in "hell", in some contexts. But, "hell" and the "lake of fire" are not synonymous, (As you will see below, they become one and the same.) and to equate "destruction" with "burning in the lake of fire forever and ever" is adding quite a bit to the text.(I never added nothing, I give scripture of what Peter said and where Hell will become a part in the Lake of Fire, maybe you need to start using Strong's?)

You need to learn that Hell will eventually itself be cast into the Lake of Fire. So you tell me the difference.

Rev. 20:

12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Also, remember this:

Mat 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (The words of Jesus, should be no error here!)


Carry on.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Let's stick stay on the same track focus on Matthew 24:13.

Let's look at Matt. 24:13 says, "But he that shall ENDURE unto the end, the same shall be saved."

My question is, what IF suppose, a person, who is not endure unto the end, then, what will be happen to a person?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

Well that was true for the Apostles also and Jesus said I have lost none, saving the son of perdition, so the scripture might be fulfilled. It goes to show we can not keep ourselves for we always have the thorn in the flesh, but by the Grace of God we shall be delivered unto the end blameless.

That is why all our trust must be in Jesus. If we are expecting to keep ourselves then we will fail, the same is true with saving ourselves, we will fail. amen,

 

[Lacy Evans]

Let's stick stay on the same track focus on Matthew 24:13.

Let's look at Matt. 24:13 says, "But he that shall ENDURE unto the end, the same shall be saved."

My question is, what IF suppose, a person, who is not endure unto the end, then, what will be happen to a person?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

He will get a portion with the hypocrites. (24:51)

 

[Lacy Evans]

What if I could give you a list of very respected men in history who have held my position on salvation. (Not all Millennial Exclusionists believe the "hell" part, but they have salvation rightly divided.) Read up on some of these men.

Robert Govett
SS Craig
DM Panton
GH Lang
GH Pember
RE Neighbour
AE Wilson
JA Seiss
WF Roadhouse
Eric Sauer
GNH Peters
J. Hudson Taylor
Watchman Nee
Paul Radar
AG Tinley
Oswald J Smith
William P Clark
WH Griffith Thomas
Jessie Penn-Lewis
Phillip Muaro
JR Graves
Anthony Norris Groves
Joseph Mede

TCGreek, Where'd-ya go?

Lacy

 

[DeafPosttrib]

He will get a portion with the hypocrite. (24:51)

Yeah? Do you actual understand what verse is talking about? Does this could be apply to us? Matt. 24:51 speaks very clear, if a person is not watching for Christ's coming, will be caught as 'thief in the night', then a person shall be cast away with unbelievers into the lake of fire- everlasting punishment on the Judgment Day follow at the coming of Christ. 'Watching' of Matt. 24:50 means, be ready, be prepared, walk godly daily.

Christ warns us, he shall come like as 'thief in the night'.

In 1 Thess. 5:2-9 teaching us about being prepared for Lord's coming. It commanded us, we ought be watch and ready for His coming. Why? Because, we are all shall face the judgment seat of Christ to judge our life and works.

1 Thess. 5:2 tells us, we should be aware that the day of the Lord shall come as a thief in the night, so, we should not be shocked.

1 Thess. 5:3 gives us the conditional what the common things for the unbelievers saying of present day conditional, a unbeliever saying, "Look, I have everything, have 401K, health insurance, have good job, own mansion, etc. everything is fine with me, I have no problem." BUT, when it happening so quickly without any expecting, the destruction shall come upon a unbeliever. A unbeliever who is not watch and be ready, shall be CATCH as 'thief'.

Let me show you of Matt. 24:40,41. "Then shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Pretribs interpreting, 'the one shall be taken' represents rapture, a saint shall be caught up, also, they intepreting, 'and the other left' represents unbeliever shall be left behind on earth to face great tribulation, miss rapture.

But, they are misinterpreting what Christ was actual saying, or in other way, they seem twisted Christ's word in an opposite way.

'the one shall be taken' represents unbeliever(also it could also apply to saint, who are NOT watch) shall be taken away for the Judgement. 'The other left' represents faithful servant, who are watch and ready shall be remain.

Christ used illumination of Noah's day - Matt. 24:37-39. Christ said of verse 39, "And KNEW NOT until the flood came, and took them all away; SO shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Christ tells us, people who do not believe Noah's warning of the coming flood, and they were not aware of the flood, when it suddenly came upon them, immediately, the flood TOOK THEM ALL AWAY! - Destruction. There were no person survived beyond flood. Only 8 people were left alive- Noah and his family in the Ark.

SO, it shall be same with the coming of Christ shall be.

People over the world, many have no idea what will be happen to them at the end of the world. Because they are remain in the dark, sinning their lief, not watch, not being be prepared. Then, suddenly when the Lord appears, He shall send his angels to gathering all nations, all unbelievers who are not watch and ready shall be end up in 'thief', means being SNATCH or TOOK them away in great force, angels shall grab all unbelievers in the air. Then, what next? They shall be thrown away in the lake of fire at the Judgment Day.

What about Christians?

If suppose, a saint starts to be backslidding and stopped serve the Lord, back to the world, become "sleep" according to Matt. 24:48-50.

THEN, suddenly, the Lord appears so quickly, a unfaithful servant shall be CATCH as 'thief', who are not watch and ready for Lord's coming. A saint shall have appointed have the part of everlasting destiny with the hyprocrites, shall be cast away into the lake of fire at the Judgement Day. Then shall be NO other second chnace beyond Lord's coming. It's done for people.

Wow! Christ's lecture does not show it is 'unconditional election' or, 'unconditional security salvation'.

One more passage to show you.

In Luke 17:34-37, Christ did mentioned about thief in the night.

Disciples do not understood what Christ saying. They asked him, "Where, Lord?" - verse 37. Then, Christ said to them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagels be gathered together." You know what it means? It speaks of vultures shall be gathering and fly down to eaten people's body! It explained in Ezekiel 39:17-20; Matt. 24:28; and Rev. 19:17-18.

These people, who are not watch and ready, remain in their sins, shall be catch up as 'thief', they shall be bring to the judgment, vultures will fly down and eaten them alive. EVEN, IF a unfaithful servant, who are not watch, shall be catch as thief, shall be share(portion) with the hyprocrites being eaten by vultures alive! And even, unfaithful servant shall be cast away into the lake of fire.

Oh what a terrible day!

There shall be NO ANOTHER SECOND CHANCE for all unbelievers and unfaithful servants beyond the judgment day follow by the coming of Christ!

So, the point is, Matt. 24:13 tells us, we ought to be endure all the way to the end(till our death, or Lord comes), then we shall be saved- victory. OR, what if we do not endure in the midst of our life, by the time, we die or Lord appears, then we shall not be saved.

This is a serious warning to us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy,

I do not agree with Millennial Exclusion doctrine, because, it is not biblical.

Nowhere throughout in the Bible teaching us, that, there shall be another second chance beyond after our death(physical) at once after the judgement - Hebrews 9:27.

I do not see find a verse anywhere in Bible telling us that, a unfaithful servant shall be being released out of the fire beyond the judgment day.

Once a person is already in hell, person is ALREADY APPOINTED awaiting for everlasting destiny - lake of fire at the judgement day!

these who teaching on millennial exclusion, they intepreting, 'kingdom' represents millennial.

I ask you, where did they get the idea comes from?

You have to prove us where in the Bible saying kingdom shall be last for only 1000 years?

I am ex-premill. Now, I am no longer myself as premill. I am amill.

Interesting, John Calvin's teaching borrowed from St. Augustine's teaching on 'perservance of the saints', this is the type of security salvation or unconditional election.

Because, Roman Catholics teaching on purgatory.

Millennial exclusion teaching sounds like as purgatory.

I know many teachers like, Nee, Whipple, Faust, etc. won't admit this teaching is familiar like as purgatory.

There is no purgatory find in the Bible. It is men-made doctrine. I reject them.

Bible is very clear teaching us, once a person dies and go to hell, person is ALREADY APPOINTED await for future final everlasting destiny in the lake of fire follow at the Judgment Day - Heb. 9:27.

Later today, I decide to start new topic or thread on 'millennial' at Baptist Theology/Bible Study.

Because, millennial exclusion doctrine, itself teaches, 'kingdom' means millennial.

That why I decide to start new topic on millennial later today. I am off from work today and tomorrow. I will not back to work till Saturday night - 3rd shift.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

But, they are misinterpreting what Christ was actual saying, or in other way, they seem twisted Christ's word in an opposite way.

'the one shall be taken' represents unbeliever(also it could also apply to saint, who are NOT watch) shall be taken away for the Judgement. 'The other left' represents faithful servant, who are watch and ready shall be remain.

I believe this, because it says as the flood came and took them unawares. I ask this question of many and only a few agrees with us.

I am ex-premill. Now, I am no longer myself as premill. I am amill.

Welcome aboard. Get ready for the heat.

I know this was not to me but I believe God's Grace is sufficient to keep us, until the day of redemption.

 

[JohnBaskette]

Kingdom vs. Eternal salvation & The Post-mill Heresy

First, The definition of Millennial IS 1.000 years! Look it up.
Secondly, What? you say Eternal Salvation is based on how you live making Jesus' shed blood of no effect in your own Post-Trib cultic mind!
I'll not try to convince you since your Post trib, I'm writing so that Christians may read my answers to your folly.
*Everything else you wrote is wrong & is the point of starting this thread! The warning passages to Christians are not warning that a Christian's Eternal salvation is in jeopardy, God forbid! rather a Christians Kingdom entrance is. Therefore I pray that He will account me worthy of Kingdom reign W/Jesus on Earth for 1,00 years!

Jesus never teaching 'kingdom', itself speaks of millennium, because he never saying it shall be last for 1000 years.

Yes, Matt. 24:13 is very clearly speak of salvation, according our conditional life. It is clear warn us, if we do not be endured(steadfast or faithful) till the end(at our death), then, we shall not be saved, the consquence will be go to everlasting punishment.

There are many passages in the Bible mentioned on conditional with warnings. We cannot neglect them, we must take heed and obey them, or we would face serious consquence at the Judgment Day, and our future eternality destiny.

Next week, I will discuss more on passages in the Bible on salvation issue.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

JohnBaskette,

Please show me a verse in the Bible saying the rapture will be before tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[J. Jump]

Well you can see it in OT type in that of Enoch who was walking with God and then was not. This happened prior to Noah and the flood which is OT type for the tribulation. That should be enough shouldn't it?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Yeah? Do you actual understand what verse is talking about? Does this could be apply to us? Matt. 24:51 speaks very clear, if a person is not watching for Christ's coming, will be caught as 'thief in the night', then a person shall be cast away with unbelievers into the lake of fire- everlasting punishment on the Judgment Day follow at the coming of Christ. 'Watching' of Matt. 24:50 means, be ready, be prepared, walk godly daily.

There is nothing about the Lake Of Fire or everlasting punishment in Matthew 24. There is, however, the word "portion".

This is a serious warning to us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

The rest of your post, I pretty much agree with. I'm not teaching a "second chance." We just differ on what the danger is, what there is to lose.

You believe (in effect) that the blood of Christ is not enough, and that a man must subsidize Christ's finished work with his own works in order to stay saved.

You believe that the "it is finished" on the cross meant "I've done as much as I can do now the rest is up to you"

According to your doctrine Hebrews 10:26 ABSOLUTELY MUST teach that all a Christian needs to do in order to fry for all eternity is sin willfully one time.

You need to take another look at the doctrine of eternal security. You have to overthrow half the Bible in order to support your doctrine. My system has a place for every verse, every Old Testament picture, and every New Testament Truth.

lacy

 

[JohnBaskette]

Kingdom vs. Eternal salvation 1st Fruits rapture.

JohnBaskette,

Please show me a verse in the Bible saying the rapture will be before tribulation?
<end quote>
Here U go DeafPosttrib, "Luke 21:36 (KJV) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

The context is Christians (Disciples) that are saved Eternally by belief in Jesus' shed blood alone!

parts of Luke 26:31 for the proof you asked for:
a] Pray to escape the Trib: Lu 21:36 (KJV) all these things."

Thanks for the question, In Christ; John

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy,

I do not agree with Millennial Exclusion doctrine, because, it is not biblical.

Nowhere throughout in the Bible teaching us, that, there shall be another second chance beyond after our death(physical) at once after the judgement - Hebrews 9:27.

I do not see find a verse anywhere in Bible telling us that, a unfaithful servant shall be being released out of the fire beyond the judgment day.

Once a person is already in hell, person is ALREADY APPOINTED awaiting for everlasting destiny - lake of fire at the judgement day!

DPT, we have been over this about a million times.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You come up with a reason God would word this satement like this, besides the fact that some WERE written in the book of life, and I'll listen. If everyone in Hell goes to the LOF, it would have simply said so.

If I pull out M&Ms from a bag and you hear me say, "The ones that were not red, I ate," how could you possibly scramble that statement around to mean "since there were no red ones I ate them all."

No you would, by the way I wordred it, fully expect to see a pile of uneaten Red M&Ms setting there.

You have to prove us where in the Bible saying kingdom shall be last for only 1000 years?

No! You know exactly where ot is taught but you reject it (without foundation) as a figurative 1000 years. The length of the Kingdom, whether it was 100 years, 10,000 years, or somethin in between makes no difference to my arguments.

Because, Roman Catholics teaching on purgatory.

Millennial exclusion teaching sounds like as purgatory.

I know many teachers like, Nee, Whipple, Faust, etc. won't admit this teaching is familiar like as purgatory.

There is no purgatory find in the Bible. It is men-made doctrine. I reject them.

[sarcasm]Because, Roman Catholics teaching on [SIZE=-1]Transubstantiation[/SIZE].

The Lord's Supper/Communion teaching sounds like as [SIZE=-1]Transubstantiation[/SIZE].

I know many teachers like, Billy Graham, J Vernon [SIZE=-1]McGee[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]John Nelson Darby[/SIZE], etc. won't admit this teaching is familiar like as [SIZE=-1]Transubstantiation[/SIZE].

There is no [SIZE=-1]Transubstantiation [/SIZE]find in the Bible. It is men-made doctrine. I reject them. [/sarcasm]

Bible is very clear teaching us, once a person dies and go to hell, person is ALREADY APPOINTED await for future final everlasting destiny in the lake of fire follow at the Judgment Day - Heb. 9:27.

There is nothing in Heb 9:27 about eternity or the LOF.

Lacy


(Note: My "there is nothing . . .arguments are tongue-in-cheek because that is the way you always do me.)

 

[JohnBaskette]

Amen Bro.Lacy! Hear him...

DPT, we have been over this about a million times.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Amen Bro. Lacy! I couldn't have said it better.
A difference to consider, Hell IS NOT The LOF. Evidenced by God giving these places Two different names!

A logical reason, How can Hell (or any object) be cast into itself?
-John


You come up with a reason God would word this satement like this, besides the fact that some WERE written in the book of life, and I'll listen. If everyone in Hell goes to the LOF, it would have simply said so.

If I pull out M&Ms from a bag and you hear me say, "The ones that were not red, I ate," how could you possibly scramble that statement around to mean "since there were no red ones I ate them all."

No you would, by the way I wordred it, fully expect to see a pile of uneaten Red M&Ms setting there.


No! You know exactly where ot is taught but you reject it (without foundation) as a figurative 1000 years. The length of the Kingdom, whether it was 100 years, 10,000 years, or somethin in between makes no difference to my arguments.


[sarcasm]Because, Roman Catholics teaching on [SIZE=-1]Transubstantiation[/SIZE].

The Lord's Supper/Communion teaching sounds like as [SIZE=-1]Transubstantiation[/SIZE].

I know many teachers like, Billy Graham, J Vernon [SIZE=-1]McGee[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]John Nelson Darby[/SIZE], etc. won't admit this teaching is familiar like as [SIZE=-1]Transubstantiation[/SIZE].

There is no [SIZE=-1]Transubstantiation [/SIZE]find in the Bible. It is men-made doctrine. I reject them. [/sarcasm]


There is nothing in Heb 9:27 about eternity or the LOF.

Lacy


(Note: My "there is nothing . . .arguments are tongue-in-cheek because that is the way you always do me.)

ALSO: The Highest form of Satanism is to "Eat god". Quoting: Alister Crowley, 1800's.

 

[skypair]

This reply is as much for HoG and Lacy as it is for you. Judas is damned. His spirit sits right now in 'the bottomless pit' (with all the other demons who left their first estate) waiting to be released in the 5th trumpet to indwell AC, Rev 11:7, 17:8! This is NOT tradition but scripture. He is the one who "was, and is not, and is to come," Rev 17:8. Zech 11:12-15 alludes to the same one during the tribulation as cutting asunder" the peace treaty and of him taking the "instruments of a foolish shepherd."

Also note that Jesus called Judas the "son of perdition" and Paul said that is who will come to rule in the tribulation, 2Thes 2:3. Pretty specific, eh?

My understanding is that the devil entered into Judas the night of the Last Supper. Prior to that, the disciples -- all of them -- healed by the power of the presence but not indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Spirit, the "Seal," wasn't given until after the cross.

Under that arrangement, Christ was using fleshly men to direct the Spirit of healing as a manifestation of His kingdom among men.

skypair

I hope this ends the quibbling between you and Bro Bob. Apparently you didn't read it before.

 

[fear of the lord]

The Bible makes no distinction between kingdom salvation and eternal salvation. This is a doctrine that has no place among those who believe the Bible.[/QUOTE

I believe the Bible Pastor Larry and I know that the Bible teaches salvation of the Spirit and a salvation to be obtained at the end of our faith
1 Peter 1:9 (KJV) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

In 1 Thess 5:8&9 it speaks of the hope of salvation and but to obtain salvation
I have no schooling in Greek other than my Strongs and it says this word is formed from a word that means purchase #4046
if that is correct how do you rectify that with salvation as a free gift?
But address the idea that the word does not make a distinction look at
2 Peter 1:10-12 (KJV)10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
Now 1 Corinthians 15:25 (KJV) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

This tells us how long Christ kingdom will last and I'm sure you know this reference in
Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I cannot understand why you feel this doctrine is unbiblical?

 

[Brother Bob]

You need to have everthing line up with what Jesus said. Jesus is the one who will be in charge of the resurrection and if it don't fit, you must quit, making kingdom after kingdom after kingdom.


John 5:
28: Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[fear of the lord]

My understanding is that the devil entered into Judas the night of the Last Supper. Prior to that, the disciples -- all of them -- healed by the power of the presence but not indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Spirit, the "Seal," wasn't given until after the cross.

Under that arrangement, Christ was using fleshly men to direct the Spirit of healing as a manifestation of His kingdom among men.

skypair[/QUOTE]
I understand why you see Judas as damned and (I am sorry I cut your scripture ref.I was unsure of how much room a post can have.) the problem is that you cannot prove that they were lead but not indwelled.Furthermore what can you make of
Matthew 19:28 (KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Notice from verse23&24 that he is speaking of the kingdom.Was Christ not speak to Judas as well as Peter?
I don't image we could pleasantly discuss scriptures pertaining to the whole nation of Israel being "saved" spiriturally way back when God called them out of Abramham .

 

[skypair]

I understand why you see Judas as damned and (I am sorry I cut your scripture ref.I was unsure of how much room a post can have.) the problem is that you cannot prove that they were lead but not indwelled.

Well, it could be proved if you believed scripture. In John's account, Jesus tells us numerous times that He would send the Spirit/Comforter -- that He would be IN us, not just WITH us.

Furthermore what can you make of Matthew 19:28 (KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It makes my day! :laugh: We are regenerated when we are born again! WE will judge Israel (see Rev 4-5 and 20:4). WE are the "elders!"

Notice from verse23&24 that he is speaking of the kingdom. Was Christ not speak to Judas as well as Peter?

No.

I don't imagine we could pleasantly discuss scriptures pertaining to the whole nation of Israel being "saved" spiriturally way back when God called them out of Abraham .

Sure we could! Not the whole nation is saved but spiritual Israel, yeah. They were justified. They will be resurrected postrib into the MK and we will judge/reward them in Messiah's kingdom.

skypair