Eternal Redemption Obtained

[Silverhair]

No, Silverhair, salvation AND faith are gifts from God.

No fallen human being has the ability, nor the want to, to believe in the finished work of Christ on behalf of God's elect as their Surety and Redeemer.

God does give the ability and the want to, to those He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety and Redeemer.

God is absolutely totally sovereign. No mere human being has ANY sovereignty. Period!

Where do you come up with the silly idea that man exercising faith means that he is sovereign?

There are only two options Ken 1] God gives faith or 2] man exercises his free will.

If God gives faith and He desires all to come to repentance/believe then why do not all believe? Is God not able to make all believe or did He just lie?
Plus if God has to give man faith and does not do so then all those that are condemned have the best excuse going, God did not give them faith so why are they condemned.

But if it is man's responsibility via his God given free will to respond to the various influences that God has provided then it is man that is responsible for the choices he makes. He cannot blame God for being condemned.

So when the bible tells us it is by God's grace we are saved through faith that is just what it means Ken.

Salvation is the free gift of God we receive through faith.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[KenH]

There are only two options Ken 1] God gives faith or 2] man exercises his free will.

If it is up to me to exercise some kind of non-existent libertarian free will, then I am lost and can never be anything other than lost. And you are lost forever, too, and every mere human being who has ever and will ever live is lost forever.

That is what the Bible teaches and you will never, ever convince me otherwise.

 

[Silverhair]

If it is up to me to exercise some kind of non-existent libertarian free will, then I am lost and can never be anything other than lost. And you are lost forever, too, and every mere human being who has ever and will ever live is lost forever.

That is what the Bible teaches and you will never, ever convince me otherwise.

So you will keep your head in the sand and deny clear scripture, got it.

But just on the of chance that your deterministc God will open your eyes

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His
life.

Now I know you will find some way to misunderstand these verses but this is what we see in scripture so I am surprised that you, who claims to believe the bible, would actually deny them.

 

[Charlie24]

View attachment 11164

Christ must die because Adam fell, in order for man to be saved.

It sounds that the Pastor believes God made Adam fall.

 

[KenH]

It sounds that the Pastor believes God made Adam fall.

God has determined ALL things. Man has never and never will determine anything. God is absolutely totally sovereign. Man has never been, is not, and never will be the least bit sovereign. God is the CREATOR, man is a mere creature.

 

[Charlie24]

God has determined ALL things. Man has never and never will determine anything. God is absolutely totally sovereign. Man has never been, is not, and never will be the least bit sovereign. God is the CREATOR, man is a mere creature.

It's amazing you say that being that you make dozens of choices a day that God has nothing to do with.

The God-given free will can never be explained away, it's clearly seen in Scripture.

 

[KenH]

you make dozens of choices a day that God has nothing to do with.

No, I don't. And neither do you or any other creature.

The will of the creature is not equal to the will of the Creator, and the will the of creature is certainly not superior to the will of the Creator.

Isaiah 29:15-16 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Romans 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

The God-given free will can never be explained away, it's clearly seen in Scripture.

There is no need to explain away something that is not in the Holy Scriptures, and the idea of libertarian free will of the creature is not in the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Charlie24]

No, I don't. And neither do you or any other creature.

The will of the creature is not equal to the will of the Creator, and the will the of creature is certainly not superior to the will of the Creator.

Isaiah 29:15-16 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Romans 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?



There is no need to explain away something that is not in the Holy Scriptures, and the idea of libertarian free will of the creature is not in the Holy Scriptures.

So every word you speak, every action you take in this life is determined by God?

 

[KenH]

So every word you speak, every action you take in this life is determined by God?

To use a phrase I learned from watching "The Andy Griffith Show", I don't chew my cabbage twice.

 

[Charlie24]

To use a phrase I learned from watching "The Andy Griffith Show", I don't chew my cabbage twice.

What did God choose for your supper tonight?

 

[KenH]

What did God choose for your supper tonight?

I eat a good breakfast and lunch and just snack at night.

 

[Charlie24]

I eat a good breakfast and lunch and just snack at night.

Sounds like God made the right choice for you.

 

[Silverhair]

God has determined ALL things. Man has never and never will determine anything. God is absolutely totally sovereign. Man has never been, is not, and never will be the least bit sovereign. God is the CREATOR, man is a mere creature.

Wow you do seem to be a bit over the top there Ken.

Who has said that man is sovereign? Well aside from all you C/R's making that claim.

But the bible says man is responsible for hearing, believing and then God via His grace will save them. Does that make man sovereign, NO, but it does make him humble.

 

[Paleouss]

As Ephesians 2:8 clearly teaches, faith is "the gift of God".

Greetings to you Ken. I hope you are having a blessed Sunday. I, myself, am on my last day of vacation. Praise God that I am able to take one.

Just putting it out there that John Calvin thought this was a "very common error", i.e., thinking that "the gift of God" referred to faith in Ephesians 2:8.

He writes in his commentaries of Ephesians...

“And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.” -- John Calvin Commentaries, Eph 2:8-9

In other words, John Calvin (the foundation of Calvinism) thinks that the "gift of God" is referring to "salvation" not "faith".

Peace to you brother

 

[Paleouss]

Free-will religion claims that fallen man brings the faith up from within - somehow - and did it themselves, thinking that they finished what Christ could not finish.

Greetings agin Ken. Thought I would make a comment on your quote above regarding what John Calvin thought.

As you might know, John Calvin railed upon free-will and boasting about it. His focus would seem to be on God. Telling us that God deserves all the credit. HOWEVER... and I capitalize the word however... John Calvin did think that mankind had a part. This idea that man does in fact have a part to play would seem to be lost on some of today's Calvinists.

John Calvin writes..

For by grace are ye saved. This is an inference from the former statements. Having treated of election and of effectual calling, he arrives at this general conclusion, that they had obtained salvation by faith alone. First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us. --- John Calvin Ephesians Commentaries

To summarize, Calvin thinks that "salvation" is entirely the work of God. I'll repeat that for emphasis... entirely the work of God. However, this entire work of God is received through "faith". Which is man's part.

So how does John Calvin reconcile salvation being the entire work of God with a formulation that man actually has a part (which is faith)?

When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God, that he may be filled with the blessings of Christ. And so he adds, not of yourselves; that claiming nothing for themselves, they may acknowledge God alone as the author of their salvation. – John Calvin

John Calvin formulates "faith" as bringing "a man empty to God". Coming empty before God for Calvin would appear to mean that faith is something like when Scripture talks about how one should come before God, that is, submit to God (Jam 4:7) and deny yourself (Luke 9:23), be humbled (Isa 66:2), lowly of spirit (Pro 16:19, Pro 29:23), contrite of heart (Psa 51:17,Psa 34:18), and not puffed up (Hab 2:4).

This "emptiness" that Calvin ascribes to faith would seem to contain nothing in which mankind can boast about. Thus, Calvin could hold that on the one hand God has His part (the entire work of salvation) and on the other man has his part (bringing faith). The part that man has is empty of anything worth boasting about. Therefore salvation is all God.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

 

[Paleouss]

There is no need to explain away something that is not in the Holy Scriptures, and the idea of libertarian free will of the creature is not in the Holy Scriptures.

In my younger days when I was active within the Society of Christian Philosophers. I immersed myself in understanding many forms of libertarian free will that was out there. In short, it was my experience that many forms of libertarian free will kept getting in the way of what I was reading in the Bible.

So I would agree with you regarding your quote above. However, I am a Compatibilist and do think that God ordains (seen in scripture), and mankind is free and culpable for his own actions (seen in scripture).

Peace to you brother

 

[KenH]

@Paleouss

Thank you for the info on John Calvin, as I, as far I recall, have not read John Calvin, except for what other people have quoted or mentioned of what he wrote.

Also, I am not a Calvinist. I am a Sovereign Grace Baptist. Sovereign Grace Baptists are sometimes lumped in with Calvinists, but Sovereign Grace Baptists are really a separate group from Calvinists in general.

Personally, I disagree with most Calvinists, as per what I have heard about them over the years, they tend to be infralapsarians instead of supralapsarians; and that they tend toward legalism, and that they tend to be rather tolerant toward fellowshipping, in a spiritual sense, with those who hold to false gospels, such as Arminianism.

 

[Paleouss]

Thank you for the info on John Calvin,

Greetings to you Ken. Hope and peace to all those that believe.

You are welcome. Actually, John Calvin has some good stuff. Even it one is not a Calvinist.

Also, I am not a Calvinist.

I am not a Calvinist either. Much more then is it a compliment that I have quoted him and recommend him. One doesn't have to agree with everything Calvin, or Luther, or Wesley wrote or believed. But they all are godly men who devoted their lives to being vessels of God. They all have some spiritual wisdom to pass along from the Spirit, imo.

I am a Sovereign Grace Baptist. Sovereign Grace Baptists are sometimes lumped in with Calvinists, but Sovereign Grace Baptists are really a separate group from Calvinists in general.

Sovereign Grace Baptist...got it. I'll try and remember that.

Personally, I disagree with most Calvinists

I, myself, tend to be in more disagreement with High Calvinist. At least the issues they, the High Calvinist, want to talk about the most (in my experience on debate boards). I can't however say I am in disagreement with Calvinist in general. They have many stances that I would agree with in some form.

As is in most instances, the Calvinist I come across in life (like maybe through pantry service), are just everyday good Christians. The only disputes I ever have are usually in debate forums.

they tend to be infralapsarians instead of supralapsarians

This is interesting. Does this imply that you are a Supralapsarian?

and that they tend to be rather tolerant toward fellowshipping, in a spiritual sense, with those who hold to false gospels, such as Arminianism

This is also very interesting. Does this imply that you are less willing to "fellowship" with those that hold to Arminianism?


Peace to you brother

 

[KenH]

This is interesting. Does this imply that you are a Supralapsarian?

Yes.

This is also very interesting. Does this imply that you are less willing to "fellowship" with those that hold to Arminianism?

Yes.

 

[Zaatar71]

The Elect or Chosen are the ones who choose to believe on Christ in the prescribed order chosen by God.

Only His way, and there is only one way.

The remnant are chosen as a remnant, in other words by free will placing them in the remnant.

This is not taught in scripture, or in history