Eternal Sanctification !

[savedbymercy]

dw:

There is no such thing as eternal sanctification in regard to application and/or experience EXCEPT in God's design

The elect were not subjectively or experientially sanctified until New Birth or the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit in time 2 Thess 2:13

But they were sanctified in God's Eternal Purpose of Election before the world began by being Chosen in Christ as His Seed. Eph 1:4. The Father sanctified them at that Time Jude 1:1.

The Elect were sanctified by the Blood of Christ before they were born Heb 10:10..

Jeremiah is an Illustration Jer 1:5

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You have simply proven what I said. All the texts you have given refer to God's eternal purpose/design.

dw:



The elect were not subjectively or experientially sanctified until New Birth or the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit in time 2 Thess 2:13

But they were sanctified in God's Eternal Purpose of Election before the world began by being Chosen in Christ as His Seed. Eph 1:4. The Father sanctified them at that Time Jude 1:1.

The Elect were sanctified by the Blood of Christ before they were born Heb 10:10..

Jeremiah is an Illustration Jer 1:5

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[savedbymercy]

You have simply proven what I said. All the texts you have given refer to God's eternal purpose/design.

I have proven what I have stated before.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I have proven what I have stated before.

You have proven no such thing! You asserted the actual SEMINAL EXISTENCE of the elect in regard to actual SPIRITUAL UNION and therefore if Christ has objective substantive existence as a Spirit before the world began you are ASSERTING that so do all the elect!

The ONLY thing the scriptures assert is their existence in the form of DIVINE DETERMINATION - Purpose - Plan - IDEA but absolutely no existence in any other form!

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

You have proven no such thing!

Yes, but you deny it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Yes, but you deny it.

Give scripture that declares actual spiritual existence within the actual spiritual loins of Christ before the world began and I will concede.

It is a no-brainer that Christ had actual spiritual existence before the world began because He is God and is not restrained to the confines of creation and time.

You cannot out of one side of your mouth claim the actual spiritual existence of Jesus Christ before the world began and out of the other side of your mouth claim actual existence of SPIRITUAL UNION with Christ without teaching polytheism as the very nature of SPIRITUAL UNION with an eternal Being before creation is the assertion of equal deity.

Furthermore, the scriptures claim we are "CREATED in Christ Jesus" in regard to spiritual union rather than ETERNAL SPIRITUAL UNION.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Give scripture that declares actual spiritual existence within the actual spiritual loins of Christ before the world began and I will concede.

Thats what Being Chosen in Christ means. John wrote as well that in Him was Life Jn 1:4

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That Life is the Life of His Seed in Him. Just like in Adam was Life, the physical lives of the elect, well the Spiritual Lives of the elect were in Christ. I don't care if you concede or not, the Truth is the Truth with or without you conceding.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes, "IN HIM WAS LIFE" but the elect are "even as others" (Eph. 2:3) so that we are "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:28) and thus SEPARATED from Christ in regard to our actual person and actual existence and only brought into living union by the creative act of God called the new birth (Eph. 2:10).

We were "chosen in him before the foundation of the world" according to God's divine purpose but do you know the difference between "purpose" and reality?

Do you know the difference between a blue print of a house and the house? The blue print is the PLAN that PRECEDES the actual reality, actual existence of the house. However, the house is "IN" the blueprint as a CONCEPT not "IN" it in any real actual existence.

We were chosen "in him before the foundation of the world" in regard to God's BLUE PRINT not "IN" him in regard to any actual existence or reality. We were also "glorified" IN him before the world began but not in regard to any ACTUAL glorification or actual existing glorification in regard to our own person.

This is so simple and so easy to see if one has eyes to see. What you are teaching is utter nonsense and requires you to deposit your brain at the door before you even enter into this conversation. You cannot distinguish between a blue print of the elect and the actual existence of the elect or the blue print of salvation and actual salvation. You want the blue print to be equal to some kind of real actual existence when it is clearly not the case. A PLAN is something not existent that you have intent to bring into existence and that is all that God had before time and space. However, since He is God and since nothing can prevent him from carrying out His plan then what he planned is AS good as done BUT that does not mean it was done before the world began only that it is SURE to be done.

dw



Thats what Being Chosen in Christ means. John wrote as well that in Him was Life Jn 1:4

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That Life is the Life of His Seed in Him. Just like in Adam was Life, the physical lives of the elect, well the Spiritual Lives of the elect were in Christ. I don't care if you concede or not, the Truth is the Truth with or without you conceding.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

Yes, "IN HIM WAS LIFE"

Right, The Spiritual Lives of God's Elect, for that Life was the Light of MEN. Christ had a Seed in Him. Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand

 

[Dr. Walter]

The term "seed" is used in scripture to mean OFFSPRING and OFFSPRING come by birth. We are the "seed" of Adam by birth and we are the "seed" of Christ by birth. Prior to new birth we were spiritually DEAD. We had no SPIRITUAL life prior to spiritual birth.

There was no Christ before the incarnation only the preexistent word of God but our life is found "in Christ." We did not share in the LIFE of the preexistent Word of God as that is only shared by the Trinity and that is the LIFE of God.

Isaiah 53 is merely speaking of those "seed" that originate by new birth - that is all.

You are teaching polytheism and that is heretical.

dw:



Right, The Spiritual Lives of God's Elect, for that Life was the Light of MEN. Christ had a Seed in Him. Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

The term "seed" is used in scripture to mean OFFSPRING and OFFSPRING come by birth.

Isa 53:10 Christ had a seed, this cannot be denied, now when did He receive this seed ? I believe it's those Chosen in Him before the foundation.

And a offspring exists before birth. The birth is the manifestation of the offspring.

Levi existed in Abraham before his birth Heb 7:9-10

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he[Levi] was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

You deny this, you deny plain teaching of scripture.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw:



Isa 53:10 Christ had a seed, this cannot be denied, now when did He receive this seed ? I believe it's those Chosen in Him before the foundation.

And a offspring exists before birth. The birth is the manifestation of the offspring.

Levi existed in Abraham before his birth Heb 7:9-10

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he[Levi] was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

You deny this, you deny plain teaching of scripture.

You cannot take a PHYSICAL reality and apply it to the preexistent SPIRIT Being God the Son. He has no reproductive capability, no loins, no wife, no sexual union in eternity. There is no "Christ" in eternity before the world began. Christ is the INCARNATION in time and space and before time and space there was no "Christ" but only the preincarnate "Word" of God. Hence there was no eternal "Christ" to be in spiritual union with EXCEPT conceptionally in the mind of God, in the purpose of God. Hence, to be "in Christ" before world began simply means that God purposed that some would be chosen to be represented by the Person and work of Christ in regard to the doctine of SUBSTITUTION where by we stand POSITIONALLY "in" his place and he "in" our place.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

You cannot take a PHYSICAL reality and apply it to the preexistent SPIRIT Being God the Son.

I am taking what scripture has revealed. Do you deny that Christ had a Offspring in Him ? And if He did, it cannot mean a physical offspring.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw:



I am taking what scripture has revealed. Do you deny that Christ had a Offspring in Him ? And if He did, it cannot mean a physical offspring.

You have no scripture that explicitly states that before the world began Christ acutally existed (except by purpose) much less that any seed actually existed in that Christ.

You are INTERPRETING texts to teach that when they DO NOT SAY THAT verbatim and when multitude of texts contradict and thus forbid such an interpretation of those texts in that manner.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

You have no scripture that explicitly states that before the world began Christ acutally existed

Are you kidding me ? Now you deny that Jesus Christ preexisted. Well I have news for you, Jesus Christ was the Medium of Creation Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Thats one verse you can deal with. I like to know how all things were created by Him and He did not exist. And notice Paul was inspired to say by Jesus Christ, to make no mistake about it.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Like all your proof texting this is a superficial text as it does not support your position at all. Paul is here referring to the risen Jesus Christ as God/man rather than the preexistent "Word" who became incarnated as Jesus Christ from Nazereth (Jh. 1:1-18). The Jesus Christ NOW in heaven at the right hand of God is the "Word" which created all things (Jn. 1:1-3) but Paul is not saying by this text that the INCARNATE Jesus Christ - the man from Bethlehem preexisted creation. Again your interpretation or in this case implication of a text is contrary to the whole of scriptural context.

dw



Are you kidding me ? Now you deny that Jesus Christ preexisted. Well I have news for you, Jesus Christ was the Medium of Creation Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Thats one verse you can deal with. I like to know how all things were created by Him and He did not exist. And notice Paul was inspired to say by Jesus Christ, to make no mistake about it.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

Like all your proof texting this is a superficial text as it does not support your position at all.

Again, you reject clear teaching of scripture. Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

How could all things be created by Jesus Christ if He did not exist ?

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw:



Again, you reject clear teaching of scripture. Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

How could all things be created by Jesus Christ if He did not exist ?

Did you even read what I said? Did you even understand what I said? Apparently not! The context is POST-incarnation. The Jesus Christ now in heaven when Paul penned these words is God/man and thus Paul is speaking of him according to his PRESENT state as both God and man. However, he is not implying that the MAN Jesus Christ preexisted creation or the incarnation for that fact or that the MAN Jesus Christ was the creator of the Universe. John explicitly tells you that is not the case in John 1:1-18.

So the clear teaching here is not what you PRESUME it to be but as usual it is taking one text and pitting it against other texts. The MAN Jesus Christ did not preexist the incarnation at Bethlehem.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

Did you even read what I said?

It doesnt mean nothing when you deny the preexistence of Christ and scripture clearly states that all things, the world or ages were created by Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

The creation of the world was before Christ resurrection in time ! You did not know that ? Paul is speaking of an activity of Jesus Christ before the world began or the earth was created for Him to die on..

 

[savedbymercy]

Like Jeremiah !

As Jeremiah the Prophet, which was a Believer in Christ and His Righteousness Jer 23:6

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

All Believers in Christ were Saints or Sanctified by Christ Blood before they were Born physically into this world. Heb 10:10-14

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Remember scripture reveals to us the Jeremiah was Sanctified by God before he came out of the womb Jer 1:5


5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Amen, Jeremiah a Type of Believer, was set apart for the Holy Purpose of God, even before He was born a sinner out of the womb. All men are born sinners, but only God's Elect in Christ are born sinners that are already by Divine Purpose, Sanctified, or born a Saint.