Piper handles this in his Perseverance discussion.......Well I'm not him. :smilewinkgrin: But yes God can take them out,but what is the point of growth then??
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Eternal security and unpardonable sin
- Thread starter Dr. Timo
- Start date
Well, obviously, God taking them out is not the ideal situation. Yes growth is important, even essential, but not essential to salvation. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Piper teaches that someone who claims to have been saved but dies while in a state of rebellion was never saved. True believers, according to him, will repent and return (epistrephw). These in 1Cor 11 did not get that chance. Yet they were indeed saved, note the tender term "sleep" in vs 30. Unbelievers do not sleep in death, they die (I know of no exception to this in Scripture), only believers "sleep".
That was my point, that someone who is a believer can commit the sin, and continue in the sin unto death. They are still saved, not lost.
Piper teaches that someone who claims to have been saved but dies while in a state of rebellion was never saved. True believers, according to him, will repent and return (epistrephw). These in 1Cor 11 did not get that chance. Yet they were indeed saved, note the tender term "sleep" in vs 30. Unbelievers do not sleep in death, they die (I know of no exception to this in Scripture), only believers "sleep".
That was my point, that someone who is a believer can commit the sin, and continue in the sin unto death. They are still saved, not lost.
I see where you was going. And yes God can punctuate from time to time killing someone,or allowing the consuquences to run there course. I would never say a believer cannot provoke the Lord to smite them:tonofbricks: . But they will not listen to false teachers and be lead away with such. Rebellion? Jonah almost died,but never denied! Sampson gave in to the flesh so did David,but never denied in his heart that God wasn't real ect. Peter denied"outwardly",but knew in his heart.
Jedi Knight said:
WHAT!!! Peter denied the Lord, period. "I do not know the man", and then he cursed and swore. I do not know how his denial could have been any more intense!
I gotta go to bed. Almost one in Georgia... I been gone from the BB for quite a while. This stuff is like an addiction for me. Not sure if that is good or bad. But, when I get to talking about the Word, I just cannot stop myself! Nite, for now...
rjprince said:
drfuss: The idea that Non-ES Christian theology (except maybe Catholics) believes that committing sins can cause a Christian to lose his salvation is a part of the false information floating around ES circles. Suggest you look at posts #47 and #132 among others.
This false information is so prevalent that it seem to never go away. It has been around for so many years. There are now many convenient ways to check this. Just go to the denominational websites of any large Non-ES denomination and check for yourself.
First of all, Classic Arminians do not believe a Christian can lose their salvation, but can forfeit their salvation by deciding to stop believing, such as becoming a Mormon.
Weslsyan Arminians believe that a Christian can lose their salvation by refusing to confess, repent and be remorseful for known sins, i.e. continuing to resist the Holy Spirit when he is dealing with them concerning the known sins. Committing the sins has nothing to do with losing one's salvation.
I just wanted to correct this. I have no intention in getting into yet another endless debate on ES. This debate has been around for hundreds of years and it won't be resolved here.
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"This debate has been around for hundreds of years and it won't be resolved here." No, the debate is resolved on a need to know basis. God shows us deep truth as we seek his wisdom and ask sincerely I believe God will show. Just like when they prayed for Peter to be set free from jail....God answered them,but guess what.....they didn't accept it. I find if a subject in scripture is a hot topic in christianity and BOTH sides seem to have valid points,I go to my knees and ask God for wisdom to discern his voice on the topic at hand
raying: . He will not leave you in the dark unless you ask in doubt not expecting the Lord to answer. We accept human testimony, God's testimony is greater...... Prayer and fasting,study,waiting on the Lord have been helpful for me.
raying: . He will not leave you in the dark unless you ask in doubt not expecting the Lord to answer. We accept human testimony, God's testimony is greater...... Prayer and fasting,study,waiting on the Lord have been helpful for me.
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Dr. Timo said:How many of you are dealing with these basic issues in your Churches, or Christian circles? Seems like issues like these keep surfacing during Sunday school, or Bible studies anymore.
Eternal security and the unpardonable sin can both be true of the same believer who is in Christ.
phew man
I seek the Lord because I hate my sin and want his help to sin no more.
My gut tells me he is the only one who can do that. If I try to quit on my own I WILL FAIL.
I keep his words "go and sin no more" in my mind. If he forgives me a theft and I go on stealing then I have wasted his precious time.
I've seen a lot of mention of ES but very little about Unforgiveable Sin - I would define US as wasting the Lord's time; treating him as a form of higher entertainment.
There's people that will get up on their hind legs about such a crazy idea.
I've seen churches where people actually sin in church and think nothing about it. If you bring it up to the pastor does he say in effect that if he were to tell these congregants not to openly practice Lust of the Flesh, Eye and Pride of Life during services, they'd quit coming to church?
I can control what my hands and mouth do, but not what my desperately wicked heart does. The atheist would say I am a hypocrite who puts on an outward show of righteousness while having all the sins of the pit in my heart.
"You fake! You just suppress the wickedness that still lives in you! You haven't changed except in outward appearance! Jesus hasn't changed you - YOU changed you! Can't you see that, are you Blind?"
Salvation begins with going to the Lord, but it only continues by doing the Lord's will and not our own.
The idea that I can do that while continuing to sin with my hands is one I will not accept.
God bless
I seek the Lord because I hate my sin and want his help to sin no more.
My gut tells me he is the only one who can do that. If I try to quit on my own I WILL FAIL.
I keep his words "go and sin no more" in my mind. If he forgives me a theft and I go on stealing then I have wasted his precious time.
I've seen a lot of mention of ES but very little about Unforgiveable Sin - I would define US as wasting the Lord's time; treating him as a form of higher entertainment.
There's people that will get up on their hind legs about such a crazy idea.
I've seen churches where people actually sin in church and think nothing about it. If you bring it up to the pastor does he say in effect that if he were to tell these congregants not to openly practice Lust of the Flesh, Eye and Pride of Life during services, they'd quit coming to church?
I can control what my hands and mouth do, but not what my desperately wicked heart does. The atheist would say I am a hypocrite who puts on an outward show of righteousness while having all the sins of the pit in my heart.
"You fake! You just suppress the wickedness that still lives in you! You haven't changed except in outward appearance! Jesus hasn't changed you - YOU changed you! Can't you see that, are you Blind?"
Salvation begins with going to the Lord, but it only continues by doing the Lord's will and not our own.
The idea that I can do that while continuing to sin with my hands is one I will not accept.
God bless
TCGreek said:
I'd agree.
As Nicodemus asked how can a man crawl back in the womb once he's born,
A person can't be "unborn" once they've been "born again".
Man may "quench the spirit", or even get so far from God they forgot they "were purged" from their old sin,
But like a "Mother", the spirit can't deny that it once gave "Birth" to the person.
Those who scoff at Christianity do so because they see people who are supposed to be born again sinning all over the place. Men who drink and commit adultery one day and preach the gospel the next.
That brings disrepute on the Lord and drives away those who might otherwise have been saved.
God bless
That brings disrepute on the Lord and drives away those who might otherwise have been saved.
God bless