Eternal Security is NEVER wrong.

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: You just want to be seen as pious and paint me as a jerk - period

HP: If any picture is painted one paints his own. It was DHK and CCRobinson that I remember that were so impatient and unkind in their remarks. I spelled that out clearly who I was addressing earlier.

 

[DHK]

This is a joke! You made yourself perfectly clear and so did I. There were no time restraints! There were no requested time for reflection by you! Zilch! You just want to be seen as pious and paint me as a jerk - period. Our discussion has ended.

Most discussions with HP end this way. It his inability to rationally discuss truth, and therefore derail the thread into something that becomes very personal.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: discussions with HP end this way. It his inability to rationally discuss truth, and therefore derail the thread into something that becomes very personal.

HP: I beg your pardon? I have been rationally and Scripturally discussing this issues. Where have you been? It was DW that bailed from rational discussion and decided to end it with personal attacks.

Now that you are back, why not pick up the rational discussion where DW left off? Take your pick. Would you desire to look at the context of Psalms 14 or 53 or the passage in Romans that DW spoke of or what?

 

[DHK]

HP: I beg your pardon? I have been rationally and Scripturally discussing this issues. Where have you been? It was DW that bailed from rational discussion and decided to end it with personal attacks.

Now that you are back, why not pick up the rational discussion where DW left off? Take your pick. Would you desire to look at the context of Psalms 14 or 53 or the passage in Romans that DW spoke of or what?

If I tell you the truth of the passages in Psalms 14 or 53, here is what will happen:
1. You will outright reject it.
2. You will call me a Calvinist as per usual.
3. You will start hurling insults.
4. Your defense if any, will be taking Scripture out of context.
5. You will fit any Scripture to your philosophy. It must fit your philosophy. The Bible comes second; your philosophy comes first. Because you reject the depravity of man, under no circumstances will you accept the teaching from any of the Scriptures given to you, no matter how clear the teaching is. Therefore why even begin discussing them.

 

[Dr. Walter]

If I tell you the truth of the passages in Psalms 14 or 53, here is what will happen:
1. You will outright reject it.
2. You will call me a Calvinist as per usual.
3. You will start hurling insults.
4. Your defense if any, will be taking Scripture out of context.
5. You will fit any Scripture to your philosophy. It must fit your philosophy. The Bible comes second; your philosophy comes first. Because you reject the depravity of man, under no circumstances will you accept the teaching from any of the Scriptures given to you, no matter how clear the teaching is. Therefore why even begin discussing them.

You hit the nail squarely on the head!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DW: If I tell you the truth of the passages in Psalms 14 or 53, here is what will happen:
1. You will outright reject it.

HP: Only if it is not according to truth, and even then I will demonstrate what I believe to be the truth

DW: 2. You will call me a Calvinist as per usual.

HP: In this you do and DHK do not tell the truth. I have never called you a Calvinist. I have indeed shown where some of the beliefs you hold to are indeed in lock step with Calvinism.

DW: 3. You will start hurling insults.

HP: You are a fine one to talk about hurtling insults. You are acting as a whited wall, condemning others for what you do on a regular basis.

DW: 4. Your defense if any, will be taking Scripture out of context.

HP: We have seen what you call taking something out of context. To you that means showing any Scripture in any other way than wht is consistent with the presupposition of OSAS you hold to or other than your position period.

DW: 5. You will fit any Scripture to your philosophy. It must fit your philosophy. The Bible comes second; your philosophy comes first. Because you reject the depravity of man, under no circumstances will you accept the teaching from any of the Scriptures given to you, no matter how clear the teaching is. Therefore why even begin discussing them.

HP: Who are you to talk here DW??? Your philosophy drives your arguments as well. You are flat out misrepresenting the truth once again when you say I do not believe in the depravity of man. I certainly do believe in the TOTAL depravity of man, but I do reject babies being sinful from birth. Sin lies not in the constitution of the flesh, as you and your father Augustine believe, but rather in the will of man.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Perhaps we can all agree that it is only those professing Christians who endure to the end who will be finally saved. Those who do not will not be finally saved.

 

[RAdam]

I believe salvation to be wholly of God, and nothing contigent upon man.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Perhaps we can all agree that it is only those professing Christians who endure to the end who will be finally saved. Those who do not will not be finally saved.

Its funny thats what scripture says.

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Brother RAdam, Must man do anything to be saved?

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

"Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." ~ Jesus

 

[RAdam]

Brother RAdam, Must man do anything to be saved?

It depends on what you mean by saved. The text that thinkingstuff just quoted is in the context of 70 AD and being saved from the calamities that would come upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people in those days. A man could be saved from all this by enduring unto the end.

When the bible speaks of salvation it speaks of being saved from many different things. Being saved from ignorance, from mortal danger, from false theology, etc. It also speaks of being saved from eternal hell. That is the work of God alone, period. Christ is the Savior, the only Savior. He isn't assisted by man, He accomplished salvation by Himself.

To me isn't total blasphemy to state that a person could love and serve God his whole lifetime and then being apostate at the end of his life and end up in hell. First of all, what a weak Savior to allow someone He loved, died for, and who served Him so well for so many years to end up in eternal hell! Secondly, under your system Jesus doesn't deserve my whole praise when I reach heaven, but I do. After all, had I not perservered, I wouldn't be there. Jesus did part of it, but I finished the work. That's just blasphemy in my book. Finally, your view leaves the child of God with no comfort, only a fear of having to keep on up to some level (which the bible doesn't particularly tell me where the line is) for the rest of his/her life in order to get to heaven. The gospel then is really just a new law. The law said you must keep it all your life in order to be righteous. Your false gospel says the same thing. That's not a gospel of salvation, bringing comfort to God's people, that's a law masquerading as a gospel.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Brother RAdam, Thank you explaining your view. I do not agree with it, but I respect your desire to give God all the glory for salvation.

I am convinced that a simple reading of the New Testament will lead us to the conclusion that there are many things we must do in order to be saved. God takes the initiative in salvation, but we must respond to Him by His grace and for His glory.

 

[DHK]

Perhaps we can all agree that it is only those professing Christians who endure to the end who will be finally saved. Those who do not will not be finally saved.

Since no man is perfect and every man a liar, heaven will be empty.
No one will endure to the end if it means to attain salvation--no one.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Brother DHK, Do you believe in the Baptist doctrine of the perseverance of God's saints? This doctrine is taught in the New Hampshire Confession in very clear terms.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Brother DHK, Do you believe in the Baptist doctrine of the perseverance of God's saints? This doctrine is taught in the New Hampshire Confession in very clear terms.

All saints persevere "in faith" that is, faith that Jesus is the Christ, the only provision of salvation. They persevere because Jesus is the author and the finisher of the faith. They persevere because what God hath begun IN you He will perform IN you until that day.

Job is an example of persevering faith in His redeemer. Satan was let loose on Job to prove that Job would NEVER REPUDIATE God. Why? Because of anything Job had over any other saint? No! Because justifying faith is authored and finished by Christ and so after everything was stripped away from Job by Satan only his faith stood fast and it stood because it's persevering power was not in Job but in God:

Job. 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him:

Job 19:23 ¶ Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


This is the Biblical doctrine of perseverance of the saints!

 

[RAdam]

Brother RAdam, Thank you explaining your view. I do not agree with it, but I respect your desire to give God all the glory for salvation.

I am convinced that a simple reading of the New Testament will lead us to the conclusion that there are many things we must do in order to be saved. God takes the initiative in salvation, but we must respond to Him by His grace and for His glory.

Again, though, what do you mean by salvation? Peter said, "Lord, save me!" What was he asking for?

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK, Do you believe in the Baptist doctrine of the perseverance of God's saints? This doctrine is taught in the New Hampshire Confession in very clear terms.

Oh yes, but not in the way you would interpret it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

...........To me isn't total blasphemy ......

(Emphasis GE)



GE:
To me also!

As I also know it's totally hopeless to try help these people understand it.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Brother RAdam, Thank you explaining your view. I do not agree with it, but I respect your desire to give God all the glory for salvation.

I am convinced that a simple reading of the New Testament will lead us to the conclusion that there are many things we must do in order to be saved. God takes the initiative in salvation, but we must respond to Him by His grace and for His glory.

GE:
I can understand you, Disciplined; I have walked the same path, I can recognise every little turn and pothole ....

I am sure it would help if you said, 'I am convinced that a simple reading of the New Testament will lead us to the conclusion that there are many things we must do WHEN WE ARE saved and BECAUSE WE ARE saved. [Otherwise you would not even have concluded or cared so much by yourself or of your own.] God takes the initiative in salvation, and shall not let go of the works of his own hands, ever, but "SHALL FINISH THAT WORK WHICH HE HAD BEGUN IN YOU"! THEREFORE, we, must respond to Him and SHALL respond : "TO HIM". God KEEPS the initiative throughout until the end! Think about it! And THINK about what YOU have said : "by His grace and for His glory"! There, is your WHOLE solution to every possible question or problem you may have had before or still may have after salvation or WHILE BEING SAVED. Think about it that God saves you to his own glory and honour: NOT YOURS! He may --- and He SHALL --- save you to your own embarrassment and shame and regret. Because you are saved AGAINST YOUR OWN WILL; not according to your own will. There is not one saved according to his own will or honour or he shall go to hell for it. You are not saved unless you are saved to the glory and honour of God and HIS, mercy and taking trouble with you CONTRARY EVERYTHING YOURSELF.

Are you reborn, a new creature? Look at yourself in Jesus Christ "The Beginning and the End of the creation of God". If you see yourself a new creature and reborn but still with your life not "hidden with Christ in God", you are looking at yourself reflected in the mirror of yourself --- pure vanity and bluff.