Eternal Security - No debate

"Calvin took the ideas set forth by Augustine and developed them even further. Instead of just touching upon the ideas of predestination, final perseverance, and the believers security, he developed an incredible system of thought that knows few rivals. John Calvin took the concept of Augustine and filled in the unanswered voids to form his theology."

This quote is from a book on Augustine and his theology. He formulated the concept of Perseverance of the Saints. Most of what Calvin advanced came directly from Augustine.

The Catholic church also advanced a concept of eternal sercurity, but it hinged on the Christian holding strong to the faith. After the Counter-Reformation, this became a work to maintain one's salvation.

Answering the question, perseverance was taught long before Calvin.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I know these Scripture and others cover the Calvinist also Jim; :thumbs:

Fortunate for the Calvinst, they have to preach the same doctrine we preach for they don't have the least idea who the "elect" are. So when the Lord said to preach the Gospel to every creature the Calvinist have to do it to keep the great commission.

 

BrotherBob, Someone said something about not going back to the New Testament Church. I was staying within history. I try to do as I am told....:saint:

Cheers,

Jim

 

Wasn't me Jim, if we can't preach the NT, I don't know what we would preach. I also believe in the OT also but don't believe in going back there and using it to commit Adultery, or kill people.

If you would like to see what I believe for sure click at the bottom of my posts where it says Old time Baptist Song Book and read our articles of faith.

 

Originally Posted by drfuss
The Roman Catholic Church did not believe in eternal security before the reformation and it still doesn't. I don't think the Eastern Orthodox Church believed in eternal security either.

My question is: Who was the first theologian or group that publically believed in eternal security during and after Martin Luther's time?

As far as I can tell, it was John calvin. Is that true?

Let's avoid debating eternal security or if the early church believed in eternal security.
_________________________________

Brother Bob, This is the quote I was referencing.

By the way, I could accept your statement, except the King James viewpoint and feetwashing. I was surprised, or did I miss it, that it didn't include pre-mil.

In Canada (Regular Baptists) are all amil, do not have feet washing, and whilst most of us use the KJV, we don't hold inerrancy to it.

Cheers,

Jim

 

That is not my statement Jim1999;

ARTICLE 8. We believe that the Lord's Supper is the command of the Saviour, and that by use of bread and the fruit of the vine, and feet washing should be kept up until his second coming by his believers.

We believe the Mill is past Jim, We believe that Christ was the First resurrection when many of the bodies of the Saints arose after He did and went into that Holy City. Also, we do hold to the KJVO. Myself, I study anything I can get but as far as the Old Regular it is KJV.

 

Brother Bob,
Have you ever heard of Dr. T.T. Shields and Jarvis Street Baptist Church, Toronto.......and Toronto Baptist Seminary, the school under that church??

Cheers,

Jim

 

No Jim; I never heard of them. I been in Toronto but was when I was young and working as an engineer in Michigan. We had two factories up in Canada and they would fly me up there to "troubleshoot".

I been to the "Port a Call" , if I spelled it right. Sure some good food there.

 

Brother Bob,
That is one of the schools I attended in Canada. Dr. Shields ws the founder of the Regular Baptist Churches in Canada, when he left the Baptist Convention over modernism in 1927.

The school was modelled after Spurgeon's College in England. It was tuition free and each student had a pastorate whilst attending school. Dr. Shields died in 1955, but the school continues to this day and in the same facilities. A great Baptist school and soundly Calvinistic and amil.

I seem to recall we shared fellowship with Regular Baptists in the USA...wish I could remember the names of some of the men I met from there.

Are you familiar with the late Dr. C.D. Cole of Kentucky? He was my professor of Biblical Theology. I am still in contact with Bryan Station Church..They publish Dr. Cole's sermons and articles in their monthly church paper,,,The Pioneer Baptist.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Why doesn't anybody advertise these things? I'd go if I just knew when they were being held.

I hear you. :laugh: No biggie. Apparently the Bishop of Smyrna said no more on this topic than those fish did.

 

Just what I have read on the net is all. The "Landmark IFC" has some work of C D Cole.
Yea, there are many Old Regular Baptist and I can trace our beginnings back to and past the separate Baptist and wonder if we are all of the same branch or what?

You were not called, just Jesus and many of the bodies of the saints. He will get you in His second coming.

 

Sorry, I was reading on Polycarp and his was the only name I could remember at the time. I love his statement that "no one will die for a lie." Polycarp was one who really believed in living for Christ.

Why is it the early Church fathers didn't grasp or agree with eternal security. If you believe from the Augustine/Calvinistic perspective, you were saved from birth so would obviously still be saved at death.

We free willers believe once you have placed all faith in Christ you are saved. Not saved by your efforts or work, saved because Christ has accepted you as his own. Jesus saves and if one could loose salvation would mean Jesus is capable of loosing one of his own. That would make his report back to the Father a lie, he didn't have them all.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Who knows, a new discovery of an old scroll might have surfaced.

 

Wonder why that there is only one passage on the Millenium and none of the other writers spoke of it, not even Jesus.
Seems to me if such an event was still to come all of the writers would of included it in their signatures and writings.

Psa 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.

In other words not even as one day!

 

You surely did. The Romish church did believe in perseverance of the saints before the Reformation, and there was even a group of priest (I forget the group's name) who were reprimanded by the pope for advancing this theology.

Calvinism, per se, did not begin with John Calvin. We simply use his name to designate a theology because he drew up the five points in opposition to the Arminian 5 points and it caught on with the puritans et al.

OSAS was a popular acronym that I remember from the 50's. Not everone accepts that acronym. I certainly do not equate it with perseverance of the saints.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Yes, and sure they can..read any good church history text.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Sometimes I wonder if some Calvinists and even Arminians actually know what the doctrines of each are.

We should argue the various theologies from the decrees rather than the vrious steps along the way....something like putting the cart before the horse.

The decrees set the order of events. In this study, one will learn that even Calvinists differed on the order of the decrees (compare Strong and Hodge on the atonement, for example....limited and unlimited in its efficacy). This is far from the op's question, however, and I offer my apologies.

Cheers,

Jim