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Eternal Security the Acid test

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Michael Wrenn

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You were "answering" what??? I never read "Calvin" once in his post. All I read were scriptures!!!

DHK never said a thing about historical theology but only referred to scriptures. Are you saying these scriptures were written by Calvin?????? If not, then what in the world are you "answering"???????

I have come to realize your limited ability to understand things that are readily and clearly apparent to others, but try to understand the following; you might eventually "get it", although I know it will take some time: I was humorously saying that OSAS is another doctrine invented by Calvin; it cannot be found in nor substantiated by scripture.
 
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The Biblicist

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First of all, I realize it is impossible for you to understand humor, so I won't address that.

But try to understand the following; you might eventually "get it", although I know it will take some time: I was humorously saying that OSAS is another doctrine invented by Calvin; it cannot be found or substantiated by scripture.

Ok, but how is that "answering" anything he actually said since he only quoted scriptures?
 

Amy.G

New Member
I was humorously saying that OSAS is another doctrine invented by Calvin; it cannot be found in nor substantiated by scripture.

It wasn't "invented" by Calvin or any other human.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
It wasn't "invented" by Calvin or any other human.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That does not teach OSAS, unless you believe that humans are puppets or automatons with no will.

Yes, you are sealed when you believe, and if you finally and impenitently turn away, you break the seal, as the scriptures teach. I don't like to proof text, but others don't seem to mind it.

Don't Calvinists find it strange that there is virtually no evidence for the Calvinist distinctives prior to Calvin? Or maybe Calvinists could point out where those distinctives were taught before the Reformed tradition sprang up. And saying "the Bible" is not sufficient because there are just as many places where the Bible contradicts those distinctives. That being the case, one must look to the earliest churches to see what was taught -- and it wasn't Calvinism.
 
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DaChaser1

New Member
That does not teach OSAS, unless you believe that humans are puppets or automatons with no will.

Yes, you are sealed when you believe, and if you finally and impenitently turn away, you break the seal, as the scriptures teach. I don't like to proof text, but others don't seem to mind it.

Don't Calvinists find it strange that there is virtually no evidence for the Calvinist distinctives prior to Calvin? Or maybe Calvinists could point out where those distinctives were taught before the Reformed tradition sprang up. And saying "the Bible" is not sufficient because there are just as many places where the Bible contradicts those distinctives. That being the case, one must look to the earliest churches to see what was taught -- and it wasn't Calvinism.


Be very careful that you do not fall into those that Peter refer to here in

2 Peter 3:16

New International Version (©1984)
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
New Living Translation (©2007)
speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.

English Standard Version (©2001)
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
 

Amy.G

New Member
That does not teach OSAS, unless you believe that humans are puppets or automatons with no will.

Yes, you are sealed when you believe, and if you finally and impenitently turn away, you break the seal, as the scriptures teach. I don't like to proof text, but others don't seem to mind it.

Don't Calvinists find it strange that there is virtually no evidence for the Calvinist distinctives prior to Calvin? Or maybe Calvinists could point out where those distinctives were taught before the Reformed tradition sprang up. And saying "the Bible" is not sufficient because there are just as many places where the Bible contradicts those distinctives. That being the case, one must look to the earliest churches to see what was taught -- and it wasn't Calvinism.

I'm not a Calvinist. A Christian is sealed for the day of redemption. He is sealed by God Himself. God will not break His promise to redeem him.
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
Be very careful that you do not fall into those that Peter refer to here in

2 Peter 3:16

New International Version (©1984)
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
New Living Translation (©2007)
speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.

English Standard Version (©2001)
as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Be careful that you do not fall into unjustly accusing the brethren.

It's amusing and sad that someone resorts to accusing someone who disagrees with them on the interpretation of a scripture, of twisting and distorting it.

I didn't say that about you; why do you do that to me? Are you that insecure and vindictive?
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
I'm not a Calvinist. A Christian is sealed for the day of redemption. He is sealed by God Himself. God will not break His promise to redeem him.

Of course God won't, if the person perseveres to the end. You believe it is impossible to reject God and turn away after you are saved; I believe it is possible. In fact, I know it's possible because scripture affirms it, and I have seen it firsthand -- more than once. And I know that these people were genuinely saved.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
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It's a shame you didn't live in first century Israel; you and the legalists could have had a great time nitpicking the words of Jesus,the apostles, and everyone else you met. :)

The problem is that you are living in your own little world of theological classifications and think everyone lives there too when they don't.

They quote scriptures and your only response is that is a theological classification. It is like certain scriptures should not be used or interpreted contextually for fear that proves a certain classification.

How about dealing with the primary source they are quoting and show your intelligence positively in demonstrating the right contextual understanding and defending it?
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not a Calvinist. A Christian is sealed for the day of redemption. He is sealed by God Himself. God will not break His promise to redeem him.

Don't you know that you can't quote certain scriptures or believe certain things without being classified under a derogatory theological classification?

Theological correctness is the new interpretative principle being pushed by some.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Of course God won't, if the person perseveres to the end. You believe it is impossible to reject God and turn away after you are saved; I believe it is possible. In fact, I know it's possible because scripture affirms it, and I have seen it firsthand -- more than once. And I know that these people were genuinely saved.

You know no such thing. Only God knows the heart.

God gives the Holy Spirit to those who believe and He is the down payment of the eternal life which God promises to those who believe.
If you are not sealed for the day of redemption, then God has lied. Is that where you want to go?
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
The problem is that you are living in your own little world of theological classifications and think everyone lives there too when they don't.

They quote scriptures and your only response is that is a theological classification. It is like certain scriptures should not be used or interpreted contextually for fear that proves a certain classification.

How about dealing with the primary source they are quoting and show your intelligence positively in demonstrating the right contextual understanding and defending it?

I have done that many times, in many places -- with scripture, early church teaching, reason, scholarship. But I will not resort to using proof texting and the Bible as a weapon. I have pleaded with people to use historical and local context when trying to interpret scripture -- such as in the headship issue on another thread.

One question: If you have such great problems with me, why do you even bother to respond to me?
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
You know no such thing. Only God knows the heart.

God gives the Holy Spirit to those who believe and He is the down payment of the eternal life which God promises to those who believe.
If you are not sealed for the day of redemption, then God has lied. Is that where you want to go?

You should be a contortionist. You know very well what I said. You are sealed, but you can break the seal. Bible affirms it; I believe it. We have the freedom to accept or reject Jesus -- before and after salvation. God doesn't perform a spiritual lobotomy on us after we are saved and remove our will.

Such a tragic thing, this fatalistic determinism
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have done that many times, in many places -- with scripture, early church teaching, reason, scholarship. But I will not resort to using proof texting and the Bible as a weapon. I have pleaded with people to use historical and local context when trying to interpret scripture -- such as in the headship issue on another thread.

I have yet to see you present a contextual based response on anything! So is that practice all in the past with you? You have done it with some texts before but that is a thing of the past now? Now you just make theological classifications?

One question: If you have such great problems with me, why do you even bother to respond to me?

I guess I just don't give up on people that easy.
 

DaChaser1

New Member
You should be a contortionist. You know very well what I said. You are sealed, but you can break the seal. Bible affirms it; I believe it. We have the freedom to accept or reject Jesus -- before and after salvation. God doesn't perform a spiritual lobotomy on us after we are saved and remove our will.

Such a tragic thing, this fatalistic determinism

The will of God is that all saved by Him will be raised up by Jesus, NONE will be lost!

God the father protects and keeps them, and the HS seals them until jesus reclaims them back in full..

Are you saying that man can break and undo what God wills not to do?
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
YYou are sealed, but you can break the seal. Bible affirms it;

If were even an ounce of truth in what you say Paul would have conditioned his statement instead of declaring it unconditionally that we are kept by the power of God unto the day of redemption.

The Seal is the Holy Spirit and you have absolutely no Bible scriptures that teach any saint of God would desire to rid himself of the Spirit of God or is able to do so.
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
The will of God is that all saved by Him will be raised up by Jesus, NONE will be lost!

God the father protects and keeps them, and the HS seals them until jesus reclaims them back in full..

Are you saying that man can break and undo what God wills not to do?

I'm saying that I'm not a Calvinist and that I believe man has free will -- a damaged free will maybe, but not a destroyed free will. The scriptures and the early church teach this. OSAS was not taught in the early church, and it is virtually non-existent until Calvin.

I can point to scriptural support for this belief, and I have done so previously, but I am reluctant to continue to proof text and use the Bible as a weapon.
 

Amy.G

New Member
You should be a contortionist. You know very well what I said. You are sealed, but you can break the seal. Bible affirms it; I believe it. We have the freedom to accept or reject Jesus -- before and after salvation. God doesn't perform a spiritual lobotomy on us after we are saved and remove our will.

Such a tragic thing, this fatalistic determinism

How is it fatalistic to believe God's promise of redemption from this wicked world and this dying body?

Why don't you post some scripture to prove that a Christian can break God's seal?
 

Michael Wrenn

New Member
If were even an ounce of truth in what you say Paul would have conditioned his statement instead of declaring it unconditionally that we are kept by the power of God unto the day of redemption.

The Seal is the Holy Spirit and you have absolutely no Bible scriptures that teach any saint of God would desire to rid himself of the Spirit of God or is able to do so.

I do, and you know I do, but I refuse to use it as a weapon against you. You have a perfect right to believe as you do, and to interpret scripture as you do -- but so do I.
 
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