Eternal Security...The Wide Gate.

Pnut, you obviously know the difference between believing and working. There is no expenditure of energy on your part to believe a truth. You can look up the definition of work and find out what it means.

Eladar, Jesus himself told us we had to believe on Him. I can't apply the blood to anyone else but myself.

 

Applying the blood to yourself. Just another form of self proclaime salvation.

As far as what Jesus said we had to do in order to be saved, I believe Matthew 7 is a good place to look:

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

To tell you the truth, I don't know why I persist in the futility of posting scripture for people who have already read it, but are blind to it.

 

What day is that speaking of? It says not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven on that day.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Some are going to be reigning with Christ for 1000 years during the kingdom. Others will not. Unbelievers will not be at the judgment seat of Christ when this determination is made. Those that are told to depart from Him are eternaly saved believers who were disobedient and will be chastened by the Lord at the judgment seat. They will not be reigning with Him. This is something that you would only experience if you were born again.

 

The kingdom of heaven is refering to the literal 1000 year kingdom of heaven that comes down on the earth when Christ returns to reign. It is not talking about eternal salvation.

 

So let me see, only if you were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God and do not worship the beast nor his image (whatever that means) and not received his mark upon your forehead or your hands, you will have done God's will.

Unless 'practicing lawlessness' is the same thing as worshipping the beast or his image, I do not see the similarity in the two descriptions. Either the Bible is inconsistant or you have your days mixed up.

 

In the NT salvation is NOT described as "never having been known by God".

Obviously those who do NOT enter into the Kingdom WHEN the Kingdom comes AT the 2nd coming (When the Son of Man comes into His Kingdom) - are lost and WERE lost prior to that time.

Obviously the point of Daniel 7 regarding the end time judgment is that it is NOT UNTIL that judgment is complete that Christ "receives His kingdom" vs 14.

The MANY on the WIDE road that DO NOT enter the kingdom of HEAVEN are those who at Christs return DO NOT get raptured and taken to that place IN HEAVEN that HE has prepared for us (John 14:1-4)

Think about it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That much is true. We see the kingdom turned over to Christ in Daniel 7 AFTER the end time judgdment in heaven is complete.

This is the kindgom that Christ comes to rule in Rev 19 when He comes again to rapture His church (same thing described in 1Thess 4)where the appearing of Christ (Rev 19) and the resurrection of the saints (Rev 20) is called the FIRST resurrection.

Christ raptures the church to Himself and takes us to heaven as promised in John 14:1-3

"I GO to prepare place for you.. I WILL COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you to MYSELF that where I AM there you may BE ALSO"

Easy.

Simple.

Clear.

Obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That much is true. We see the kingdom turned over to Christ in Daniel 7 AFTER the end time judgdment in heaven is complete.

This is the kindgom that Christ comes to rule in Rev 19 when He comes again to rapture His church (same thing described in 1Thess 4)where the appearing of Christ (Rev 19) and the resurrection of the saints (Rev 20) is called the FIRST resurrection.

Christ raptures the church to Himself and takes us to heaven as promised in John 14:1-3

"I GO to prepare place for you.. I WILL COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you to MYSELF that where I AM there you may BE ALSO"

Easy.

Simple.

Clear.

Obvious.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Not the way you make it look.
Christ comes again - so that the saved can be where He is - where He had come to, and that is the earth. You insert "heaven". It does not say so.

 

Amen and Amen! Making a decision is 90% brain work and 10% physical work, you still aint gonna make it on your own.

 

Bob,

I take it you believe that:

"beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"

Means the same thing as:

Those who do not practice lawlessness.

You guys are having to make some very shaky jumps in order to keep your misconceptions consistant with what the Bible says.


Besides, if one wants to see where the Bible is specificially against OSAS, then one should read the parable of the slave whose sins are forgiven but refused to forgive another slaves sin and where John writes about those who they believed were saved, but left and therefore showed that they were not.

Most OSAS people cop out with the "they weren't really saved to begin with" statement. I call it a cop out because eventually anyone can reveal the fact that he/she was never 'really saved to begin with'. It is a completely false assumption that those who fall away didn't actually believe they were saved.

 

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

What is the free gift?

Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

What is the prize?

These are not the same thing. This prize is something that Paul says he must press toward, and apprehend. It is not a free gift, it is something that he must work for. What is the difference between these two things?

 

What do you call something that you can 'win', but you can't earn? The Bible calls it salvation.

James, I have a question for you: do you believe in Universal Salvation or do you believe that God simply picks and chooses who He will find righteous and who He will find unclean for no paticular reason at all?

It seems to me that these are the only two logical conclusions to the Salvation as a "Free Gift" theology.

 

I think there is another conclusion that you are overlooking, and I have been trying to point it out, but I will just say it. There is more than one salvation. There is the salvation of an unregenerate man unto eternal life, when He believes on the Lord's sacrifice as the payment for His sins. This is the free gift. Then there is the salvation of this believer at the judgment seat of Christ where he is going to be judged for his works, at which time we are told in 1 Corinthians 3 that if a man defile the temple, which temple he is, God will destroy him. Take another look at Revelation 20:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

these are believers who overcome, they are given a crown to reign with Jesus in His kingdom. We see this promise in Rev 2 and 3

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The believers in rev 20:4 who are reigning with Christ are overcomers, who have fulfilled the conditions of these promises (to him that overcometh...)This is that prize of the high calling that Paul was speaking of. What do we see in the next verse?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The only ones who are called blessed and holy, and have a part in the first resurrection, are those who are reigning with Christ, the overcoming believers. The rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are finished. And what happens after the thousand years?

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The rest of the dead, which are everyone who is not reigning with Christ in verse 4, are brought up to appear before the great white throne, and whosoever is not found written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire. There will be people coming up to stand at the great white throne who will be in the book of life. These people will not be the people that were reigning with Christ for the previous thousand years, but believers who for whatever reason were not living for the Lord, and took advantage of His grace. They will still be raised up on the last day, just as Jesus promised to anyone who believes on Him. This is the free gift.

 

This does not explain how it could be free. If the cost is believing, then there is still the cost. If something is truely free, then there should be no strings attached at all. Things that are free are unconditional. Once you place some action upon it, then it is no longer free.

I understand the way your theology gets around the scripture that tells us that our actions do count and that if one acts a certain way, then there is no way one can be saved.

There's no need to try to convince me that your view is actually correct, just as there is no need for me to try to convince you that my view is actually correct.

If nothing else, I'm hoping you will see the hypocrisy in your use of the term 'free'. If Salvation is free, then nothing we do can have any effect on us receiving this free gift. If Salvation is free, then those who receive it receive it and those who do not, do not.

Either everyone is going to receive this free gift or some people will and some people won't and how we act will have no bearing on the matter. If our actions did have an effect, then it wouldn't be a free gift now would it?

 

Brother, the bible uses the term free, I didn't make this stuff up. You may not be able to reconcile this fact with the idea that you have to believe, I suggest you take this to the Lord prayerfully. You were shown a truth and you believed it, no? The truth was that you were a sinner and on the way to the lake of fire, and the only way out of it was for God to sacrifice His only Son on the cross to pay for your sins. You couldn't do anything to save yourself, except believe. If you think that believing cost you something, I think you have been decieved. It could have cost you nothing more than the delusion that there was anything good about you, or that you could be good enough to merit eternal salvation. The fact that it is a free gift does not mean that everyone will be saved.

Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Those who will not believe will be judged for their own works at the great white throne, just as they have asked. They have effectively said 'I don't need a saviour, there is nothing wrong with my works, I will be fine on my own' and God will hold them to this. But to us who believe that we need a saviour, we will have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us on that day, freely, not because of our works, but because of His grace.

 

AMEN BROTHER JAMES PREACH IT!

Eladar:
When you are given a gift, birthday, Christmas, graduation, wedding, etc. ; did it cost YOU anything to receive it? No. Then it is FREE to you, is it not? This is not so hard to understand. The gift is free. The prize is a reward for faithfulness to your master. Simple and plain.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

av1611jim said:

When you are given a gift, birthday, Christmas, graduation, wedding, etc. ; did it cost YOU anything to receive it? No. Then it is FREE to you, is it not? This is not so hard to understand. The gift is free. The prize is a reward for faithfulness to your master. Simple and plain.

Tam says:

What if you just take that free gift and throw it in the trash because you don't know the importance of it and it is taken to the landfill and stays there? Is it still of any value?

Yes, salvation is a gift, we can do nothing to earn it, but what we do with it after we receive it depends on us!!

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

Tamborine Lady: "Yes, salvation is a gift, we can do nothing to earn it, but what we do with it after we receive it depends on us!!"

This seems a strange statement. It doesn't seem
to make sense considering what "salvation" means.

Jesus is the source of Salvation.
Salvation has three components (for the
living saved):

1. Past - justification
2. Present - scantification
3. Future - glorification

Justification Salvation is what Jesus did to you when you
were saved.
Scantification Salvation is the daily cleaning up Jesus
works in our lives
Glorification Salvation is the final receipt of salvation
at the Second Coming of Jesus: the rapture/resurrection.

 

"Three components of salvation"
This phrase is new to me, after all these years as a Christian. Agree with it 100%. Could also be in three phases:
1. Initial
2. Continuous
3. Final

John 14:16
"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.

He. 3:5
"Keep yourlives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, never will I leave you: never will I forsake you."

Those born again are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and according to the above will never leave you. Tam says we can kick God out of our lives after we receive him. This is really absurd, creation telling what God can do or not to do.

 

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how oft I would have taken you unto myself, but ye would not!.
Hmmm, here we have "creation telling what God can do or not to do".

Prophecynut; are you "nuts"?
In the very verse you posted, we have "Keep yourselves...". Who does the keeping? Us or God? Obviously it is God who would have us to keep pure but He is not going to do it for us in this context.
Maybe you should have picked a better passage to prove your point. As it is, your post is as clear as mud.
In HIS service;
Jim