Eternal Security...The Wide Gate.

[Trotter]

Not the intent I read into it, jcf. Glad I asked first .

Apparantly, we are on different sides on this issue. I doubt that I can convince you, and I know that you cannot convince me. But I really want to try to understand how anyone comes to the conclusion that salvation depends upon man keeping it himself.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Nevertheless]

Originally posted by Trotter:
The fall of man, the fall of Satan, the fall of the angels who followed Satan. Which of these did God not know about beforehand? Which of these caught Him unprepared? None of these "undid" God's work, for He had already planned it.

Ah, so now the question becomes how can can we undo something God has done in a way He has not foreseen? Well, that, my dear Trotter, is impossible. It is also not the question you originally asked.

Originally posted by Trotter:
So, your theology amounts to "God allows some to be saved so He can tease them with the thought of eternal life, because He is going to let them becomed 'unsaved' again." Did I miss anything?

Yes, apparently you missed the lesson teaching you how impolite it is to tell someone what they believe rather than asking them. No one has proposed that God is a tease.

Originally posted by Trotter:
If one can lose their salvation, I move that they were never saved to begin with. And if you believe that once someone is saved that they will never sin again, I want to know how...short of killing them right then and there.

It is your right to believe whatever you wish, and if such mental gymnastics make you feel comfortable, then more power to you! Just refrain from insulting those who don't care to do them with you. Again, no one has proposed that those who are saved never sin again. Perhaps you are under the impression that those who believe differently than you also believe in the revolving door of salvation -- every sin causes a loss of salvation until confession of that particular sin which then regains salvation until the next sin . . . That too is a grievous error.

Originally posted by Trotter:
Again I ask, ""How can someone remove the blood of Christ after it has been applied to him? How can a man 'unsave' himself?"

In Christ,
Trotter

Quite simply, by rejecting the gift of grace. How any Christian could possibly reject his Lord and Savior is beyond me, but I cannot understand how anyone could refuse to accept God's gift of grace to begin with - yet they do. It makes no sense to me that someone would make such a choice, but neither does it make sense for scripture to warn us about falling away if it were impossible for us to do so!

We are able to grasp only a small portion of the magnificence of God. When we come to something about Him that is beyond our ability to understand we try to reason our way around it, but the result is a box too small to confine Him.

God seems to delight in paradox, have you noticed that? He who wants to live must die; he who wants to be greatest must be the servant of all, etc. God is certainly able to keep us from falling, and He will do so, if we allow it. He is not so insecure that He must keep all power in His own hands. He gave to us something very powerful - choice. And He does not take our choice away once we become His. He desires love freely given, and any compulsion on His part would destroy that freedom. And so the paradox - eternal security and the danger of falling away. Both true. Do I understand it? No. But I am able to accept things about God that are too great for me to understand.

To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

The Holy Bible : New International Version. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984. Jud 24-25.

 

[ccrobinson]

I've read all the posts in this thread with interest. I believe that Eternal Security is true and sound doctrine. The biggest argument against it seems to be the idea that somebody can basically walk away from salvation and lose it.

For those of you who believe this, how do you reconcile Galatians 2:20 and Hebrews 13:5 with this idea?

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Hebrews 13:5
"... for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

So, if Christ lives in me, and he said that he would never leave me, how is it possible that I could walk away from salvation, thus losing it?

Thanks!

Chris

 

[Ed Edwards]

Salvation Security doctrine
is about the faithfulness
of God. Salvation insecurity doctrine
is about the perfidy of humans.

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by ccrobinson:
I've read all the posts in this thread with interest. I believe that Eternal Security is true and sound doctrine. The biggest argument against it seems to be the idea that somebody can basically walk away from salvation and lose it.

For those of you who believe this, how do you reconcile Galatians 2:20 and Hebrews 13:5 with this idea?

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Hebrews 13:5
"... for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

So, if Christ lives in me, and he said that he would never leave me, how is it possible that I could walk away from salvation, thus losing it?

Thanks!

Chris

Hi Chris,

We are to crucify ourselves daily, in other words, if we seek our our personal agenda (life) we will lose it. But if we by crucifying the flesh we will save our life.

Luke 9:23-24 Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily , and follow Me. "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.

God will never leaving or forsaking us is not an eternal security verse but rather and ecouragment verse and is taken from Deuteronomy.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conduct be without covetousness, and be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you.''

In the Hebrews God is telling us not to be covetosness because we have God and He will never leave us if we don't turn from His in covetousness. We find the same promises and warning in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 31:6 "Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.''

When God's people went into the land they began worshiping false gods and God forsook and left them.

Deuteronomy 31:17-18 "Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, `Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' "And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods.

 

[Trotter]

We are to crucify ourselves daily, in other words, if we seek our our personal agenda (life) we will lose it. But if we by crucifying the flesh we will save our life.

Gee, a whole lot of "we/me" in there. Just who are you depending on/in for your salvation? Sounds like you are trying to carry it all yourself. If you are able to do that, then Christ died in vain.

Our salvation begins, continues, and culminates in God, not man/us. Salvation is by grace, not works. Grace is what God does. Works are what we do. So, who is holding your salvation? I know Who is holding mine.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Eladar]

Gee, a whole lot of "we/me" in there. Just who are you depending on/in for your salvation? Sounds like you are trying to carry it all yourself. If you are able to do that, then Christ died in vain.

I don't know, it sounds Biblical to me.


Romans 12:1 1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

Ephesians 5:1-3 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;

Philippians 2:16-18 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain. But even if I am being poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with you all. You too, I urge you, rejoice in the same way and share your joy with me.

Our salvation begins, continues, and culminates in God, not man/us.

When you say 'our', you do mean of course those who know God. Or as Jesus said, those who put his teachings into practice.

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by Trotter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />We are to crucify ourselves daily, in other words, if we seek our our personal agenda (life) we will lose it. But if we by crucifying the flesh we will save our life.

Gee, a whole lot of "we/me" in there. Just who are you depending on/in for your salvation? Sounds like you are trying to carry it all yourself. If you are able to do that, then Christ died in vain.

Our salvation begins, continues, and culminates in God, not man/us. Salvation is by grace, not works. Grace is what God does. Works are what we do. So, who is holding your salvation? I know Who is holding mine.

In Christ,
Trotter </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Trotter,

One of the problems people have is that they define salvation as a ticket they get punched. The Scriptures do not teach this. What we do find in Scripture is salvation being a work in us by God. It's a work that we can neglect.

Hebrews 2:1-3 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

The words of Jesus to the abiding believer is what brings about salvation in a person life, salvation from sin.

Hebrews 5:8-9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Can we still sin during God's saving work within us, can we turn away from God's saving work in the believer? Yes we can but not without loosing the joy and peace that comes from being right with God. There will be conviction and burden upon us because of our willfull sin in order to turn us back to God and His work of salvation. The wage of sin has it's effect on everyone, believer and nor believer. There is a process that takes place within us if we don't repent and be graffted back into the life giver, Jesus.

James 1:14-16 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.

 

[hillclimber]

 

[ccrobinson]

Originally posted by jcf:
Can we still sin during God's saving work within us, can we turn away from God's saving work in the believer? Yes we can but not without loosing the joy and peace that comes from being right with God. There will be conviction and burden upon us because of our willfull sin in order to turn us back to God and His work of salvation. The wage of sin has it's effect on everyone, believer and nor believer. There is a process that takes place within us if we don't repent and be graffted back into the life giver, Jesus.

Maybe I just missed it, but I need to understand something from those of you who believe in Eternal Insecurity. How many sins will it take for me to lose my salvation? If I have the ability to lose it, when does that happen? Just as there has to be a point of receiving the gift, there also has to be a point where I've told God that I just don't want eternal life anymore. When does that happen? The last thing I want is to lose my salvation, so what do I do to make sure that doesn't happen?

I John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

This verse says that I can know I have eternal life. Other people tell me that I can't know that I have eternal life. Help me understand how you explain I John 5:13.

I posted the question earlier about Jesus Christ living in me and that he would never leave me. I was told that the Hebrews quote meant something different than what I thought, so I have another question. What about this?

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus said here that he would be with us always, which is what I thought was said in Hebrews 13:5, but I've been told differently. Hebrews 13:5 and Matthew 28:20 may not be inherently referring to Eternal Security, but when taken into consideration with the idea of Jesus living in me, how does that not apply to Eternal Security?

Thanks!

Chris

 

[Trotter]

And please explain how we can evict the Holy Spirit Who takes up residence within us?

And please explain how the sacrifice of Christ is insufficient to maintain eternal security?

And please explain why Jesus lied to Nicodemas in John chapter 3?

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Eladar]

And please explain how we can evict the Holy Spirit Who takes up residence within us?

By not putting Jesus' teachings into practice.

And please explain how the sacrifice of Christ is insufficient to maintain eternal security?

Because we aren't actually judged righteous until judgement day?

And please explain why Jesus lied to Nicodemas in John chapter 3?

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


It seems to me that Jesus did not lie to Nicodemas. "He who practices the truth comes from the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God".

Jesus never claimed salvation for those who are not God's.

 

[ccrobinson]

Originally posted by Eladar:

And please explain how we can evict the Holy Spirit Who takes up residence within us?

By not putting Jesus' teachings into practice.

I've already sinned this morning, which certainly goes against Jesus' teaching. So, am I in danger of Hell, even though I asked Jesus to save me over 20 years ago? Romans 10:9 says that I need to confess with my mouth and believe in my heart, and I did confess and I do believe. Doesn't Jesus' blood cover all my sins, including the ones I committed already today?

And please explain how the sacrifice of Christ is insufficient to maintain eternal security?

Because we aren't actually judged righteous until judgement day?

I'd love to see a chapter and verse that proves this. But, I'm pretty sure that one doesn't exist. Going back to Romans 10:9, the end of the verse says, "... thou shalt be saved." This means that I'm saved at that very moment, but if I'm not judged righteous until judgment day, then I'm not saved right now, and Romans 10:9 is a lie. This cannot be true.

And please explain why Jesus lied to Nicodemas in John chapter 3?

It seems to me that Jesus did not lie to Nicodemas. "He who practices the truth comes from the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God".

Jesus never claimed salvation for those who are not God's.

Yes, yes, of course this is true. Being saved means that I belong to God. If I don't belong to God, then it follows that I've never been saved.

Let me ask this. What keeps us out of heaven? Our sin problem is what keeps us out of heaven and eternal life. But, if the blood of Jesus washes away all of my sin, what sin do I have left that keeps me out of heaven? If Jesus blood washes me white as snow, and if the Father sees me as sinless when he looks at me, what is there that would cause the Father to take away the gift of eternal life?

Please tell me. Because if there's some way that I can lose my salvation, I have to know what it is to make sure I avoid it.

Thanks!

Chris

 

[Eladar]

I just lost a big post again. I'm not patient enough to post it again, but I will give you the verses I used. I'll explain them later if you don't see the message I was trying to bring:

Try reading 1 Corinthians 4:4-5 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Matthew 13:18-23 Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

 

[ccrobinson]

If you are continuing to say that we aren't justified immediately at the time of salvation, then I don't agree with that. I'm not entirely sure where you're going with these verses, so additional explanation would be great. I will patiently await your explanation.

Thanks!

Chris

 

[Eladar]

5 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

When is it that Paul is saying we are to be judged? What does Paul say about judging before that time?

hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Here we have another reference to the fact that judgement has not yet been handed down. The judgement happens at a paticular time, but it isn't now. It is on judgement day. Hence the name 'judgement day'.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[jcf]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

Focus on key words such as, holy brethren and that little tiny word (if). Also what happened to these people in the wilderness can happen to us, according to YAHWEH.

Hebrews 3:1-18 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

 

[Eladar]

Ed,

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

[sarcasm]If it's in the KJV and you understand it to mean this then it certainly must mean what you think it means. [/sarcasm]

We are warned many times in the Bible that lip service is meaningless. If you want to clarification of what Romans 3:16 means, read the part that I put in bold in my post: February 16, 2005 12:21 AM.


If you are correct then I wish you were around during Paul's time so that you could correct him.

 

[ccrobinson]

Eladar, the verses you bolded are found in John, not Romans. John, not Paul, was quoting what Jesus said to Nicodemus.

If there is some other meaning of Romans 10:9, please explain, because it seems pretty plain in meaning to me.

Finally, please explain how the blood of Jesus isn't sufficient to wash my sins away. If you get done with that, then please explain why Jesus suffered like he did and shed his blood for us if it wasn't enough to accomplish our salvation.

Thanks!

Chris