Eternal Security...The Wide Gate.

[steaver]

Hi Bob, you said....

Matt 18 (last half of the entire chapter) has Christ telling a rather detailed story of "forgiveness REVOKED".

Then His conclusion is compelling "SO shall My Father do to EACH of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

Interesting that Christ claims The Father will do something that many Christians claim to be impossible.

In Christ,

Bob

You posted this same thing in another thread and I asked for a life application on the matter. Surely you can give a real life scenario to explain how this passage applys to the Christian.

Here are my questions again.....

Are you then concluding that any Christian who has an outstanding debt of forgiveness owed will lose their salvation according to this passage?

Does this happen at a judgment time or is it instant, like while a Christian is holding a grudge they are unsaved and when they then repent and forgive the debt they are saved again? Just how would this work?

If yes, what if a Christian has held a grudge for say two weeks against another and then suddenly dies without forgiving, does this Christian go to hell then?

God Bless!

 

[aa0310]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Amen Brother Machael52 -- Preach it!

John 3:16 (HCSB = Holman Christian Standard Bible):

For God loved the world in this way: He gave
His only Son, so that everyone who believes
in Him will not perish but have eternal life

Eternal Security = "have eternal life"

It is always interesting to read the Scriptures in the original language, if possible. As it often says things that the English (or other language) versions misrepresent.

I do not read that words "will not perish" in the Greek text, which would require the Greek to be in the "indicative mood", which asserts "absolutely", or "certainity". Here, the Greek is as the King James has it, "should not perish", which is the "subjunctive mood", that asserts, "conditionally". Our English word "believes" is in the Greek in the "present", or "continuance" tense, that is, "keeps on believing". This would make the "Eternal Life" dependant upon the "on-going believing" of the believer!. We therefore read in Scripture, "if you continue in the faith..." (Colossians 1:23); "if we hold fast the confidence..."(Hebrews 3:6), etc. Let us not kid ourselves in thinking that "Eternal Security" is based only on our believing, but not the living as well! Salvation in Scripture is "conditional"!

 

[steaver]

Let us not kid ourselves in thinking that "Eternal Security" is based only on our believing, but not the living as well! Salvation in Scripture is "conditional"!

Of course it is! One must be born of God. Once born of God, Christ in you, you cannot ever not believe!

If I could have stopped believing, I would have many times, yet Jesus Christ in me keeps me believing, otherwise I would have stopped long ago!

You see, Jesus is your source of faith. You are His. You cannot fail! Praise Him! And Him alone for your salvation! You do not keep yourself saved. The Spirit is what keeps you.

Tell me. Are you saving yourself? What is the purpose of being "born again"?

God Bless!

 

[Ed Edwards]

aa0310: //I do not read that words "will not perish" in the Greek text, ... //

I am stuck with English. Anyway, i wasn't trying to
change the text. I was trying to assert:

What ever God means by "have eternal life" in John 3:16
is what i mean by "Eternal Security" in these discussions.

aa0310: //Salvation in Scripture is "conditional"!//

Thank God i've got Salvation in Christ. Salvation in
Christ is unconditional and I shall "have eternal life".

 

[aa0310]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
aa0310: //I do not read that words "will not perish" in the Greek text, ... //

I am stuck with English. Anyway, i wasn't trying to
change the text. I was trying to assert:

What ever God means by "have eternal life" in John 3:16
is what i mean by "Eternal Security" in these discussions.

aa0310: //Salvation in Scripture is "conditional"!//

Thank God i've got Salvation in Christ. Salvation in
Christ is unconditional and I shall "have eternal life".

You are greatly deceived to say that your salvation is "unconditional". Did you not believe in the first place? Then it was "conditioned" upon your believing! I know that some hold that even our believing God does for us, but again, this is NOT taught in Scripture.

Can you answer me this one thing. Why did John write, "may not perish" (me_apoletai), which is in the "subjunctive mood"? As you are no doubt aware, this "mood" is used in the Greek to denote "condition". Please, lets deal with what Scripture teaches, and not our "theology"!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Sorry, your Greek lessons roll off my back
as water off a duck. Speak English, i hear
some do that in your country

I was not saved, salvations was conditional.
I am saved. salvation is no long conditional.
However, there are some conditions i will
imbrase because i got saved.

Anyway, do you know the plan of unsalvation?
Just give it to me, step by step.
Once Saved, Always saved (OSAS) speaks of the
fidelity of God, not the perfidy of man.

 

[steaver]

Please, lets deal with what Scripture teaches, and not our "theology"!

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life ". (John 4:14)

Do you have multiple definitions for the words "never", "shall be" and "everlasting life"?

Or was Jesus telling a half truth?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said -- Matt 18 (last half of the entire chapter) has Christ telling a rather detailed story of "forgiveness REVOKED".

Then His conclusion is compelling "SO shall My Father do to EACH of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

Interesting that Christ claims The Father will do something that many Christians claim to be impossible.

Originally posted by steaver:

You posted this same thing in another thread and I asked for a life application on the matter.

That is what I get for posting on so many threads that I forget which ones have an active post by me. Please PM me if I do that again.

Thanks.

Now as for your question - you make it "appear" taht I am the author of Matt 18 and if I can not fully detail Christ's words there - then you don't have to listen to them.

I beg to differ with the premise of your question.

Having said that - in this case it is an easy question.

In Matt 6 Christ already makes the point about forgivenss and in Matt 18 He makes an even stronger case about it.

If we fail to forgive others OUT OF GRATITUDE for God's having ALREADY FORGIVEN us - then our own forgiveness is revoked (that is - if we "believe" the words of Christ in Matt 18).

This is a particularly devastating argument by Christ for the traditional way assurance is formulated by some groups today. THE BASIS of forgiving OTHERS is that REAL forgivenss has ALREADY been experienced by you - from God.

The only way to FAIL to be guilty of the sin described in Matt 18 is that you must FIRST be REALLY forgiven by God and THEN you must choose NOT to forgive your fellow man.

This is impossible to miss.

Impossible to ignore.

Impossible to "edit away into some other nonsensical meaning".

What will you do with it?

Steaver

Surely you can give a real life scenario to explain how this passage applys to the Christian.

Is it your claim that it is too hard to understand how a christian can be forgiven by God?

Or is it your claim that it is too hard to understand how a FORGIVEN Christian could be WRONGED by someone and then not feel like forgiving his fellow man?

What difficulty are you claiming to have with this simple illustration Christ gives?

Are you then concluding that any Christian who has an outstanding debt of forgiveness owed will lose their salvation according to this passage?

Yes - the text says - forgiveness is revoked. You can lose your saving relationship with Christ if you harbor unforgiveness.

What "other form" of forgiveness revoked are you familiar with?

Does this happen at a judgment time or is it instant, like while a Christian is holding a grudge they are unsaved and when they then repent and forgive the debt they are saved again? Just how would this work?

Is a minute-by-minute Holy-Spirit New-Birth clock needed before you will accept the teaching?

Why not just believe Christ EVEN though 11 minutes of a grudge might be possible but 12 minutes not possible? Why do you insist on getting the "Holy-Spirit clock" on this first?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[D28guy]

Ed Edwards.

"Sorry, your Greek lessons roll off my back
as water off a duck. Speak English, I hear
some do that in your country"

Ha ha! I got a tickle out of that, since I feel the same way sometimes.

The God I serve speaks ENGLISH as well as Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.

God bless,

Mike

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by aa0310:
You are greatly deceived to say that your salvation is "unconditional". Did you not believe in the first place? Then it was "conditioned" upon your believing! I know that some hold that even our believing God does for us, but again, this is NOT taught in Scripture.

Can you answer me this one thing. Why did John write, "may not perish" (me_apoletai), which is in the "subjunctive mood"? As you are no doubt aware, this "mood" is used in the Greek to denote "condition". Please, lets deal with what Scripture teaches, and not our "theology"!

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Let's examine this verse. It teaches us (as well as a plethora of other verses) that God's love for us is unconditional. He loved us unconditionally. That cannot be denied.

Today people talk a lot about "acceptance," and accepting someone "unconditionally" as in just as they are. They then try to equate that to what Christ did. The trouble is that unconditional acceptance and uncondtional love are two different things. God does not accept us unconditionally. There is no unconditional acceptance on God's part, and indeed there cannot be. We sinned. He paid the price, the price of the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. On that condition are we accepted. His love is unconditional. His acceptance is conditioned on his substitutionary atonement for our sins. "He that believes not the Son of God, has the wrath of God abiding on him." Salvation is a free gift. Eternal is a free gift. It is free to all them who have appropriated his sacrificial blood to themselves. It is a payment that had to be made. Christ made it once for all. He does not continue to make the payment. He made that payment one time, and one time only, and then he sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. He took our place on the cross. I believe, but one time only. I pay the penalty in Christ, that He has paid for me. I don't have to keep on paying the penalty. Once I have appropriated what Christ has done, the penalty has been paid, and my burden of sin has been done away with. In addition to taking away my sin, He graciously gives me eternal life. That is out of his grace. It is unconditional. I didn't work for it. The fact that I keep on believing has nothing to do with the one initial act of believing that saved me in the first place. I don't have to keep on paying the price--that Christ paid for me. That is why it is subsitutionary.
DHK

 

[ccrobinson]

Yes - the text says - forgiveness is revoked. You can lose your saving relationship with Christ if you harbor unforgiveness.

I asked my pastor about Matthew 18, because I heard the exact same thing about it from a radio preacher. My pastor understands the Matthew 18 text about forgiveness to be on the front side of Calvary, not the afterside, and it should be understood in light of O.T. theology. I believe he's right.

If a brother sins against me, and I don't forgive him, is that sin? Obviously, it is.

So, if unforgiveness causes me to lose my salvation, then are you saying that the sin of unforgiveness isn't covered by the blood of Christ? If unforgiveness isn't covered by the blood, then how can I know that any of my sins are covered by the blood?

Either the blood washes away all of my sins or it doesn't wash away any of my sins. Which is it?

Let's discuss Matthew 18 and these other texts, but if the explanation given, whether it be mine or somebody else's, doesn't harmonize with the fact that Jesus' blood washes away all of my sin, then those texts have to be understood in some other way.

 

[steaver]

Let's discuss Matthew 18 and these other texts, but if the explanation given, whether it be mine or somebody else's, doesn't harmonize with the fact that Jesus' blood washes away all of my sin, then those texts have to be understood in some other way.

That is correct and the Word of God commands it as well. Precept must be upon precept (Isaiah 28:10). Rightly divide the Word of Truth (2 Tim 2:15).

Bob,

You have clearly demonstrated how failure to follow God's instructions for learning doctrine can lead one into preaching "another gospel".

Jesus stated that "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghosts shall not be forgiven unto men" (Matt 12:31).

That is ALL but ONE sin SHALL BE FORGIVEN.

There is only one sin which condemns a person to hell and that is unbelief. Jesus paid the price for the sins of the WHOLE world, not just the believers.

If one commits the sin of unforgiveness it will be covered by the blood. Jesus said ALL but one. If you follow God's rules for sound doctrine you will find that there is no such thing as "forgiveness revoked" for the born of God and you will find the true reason Jesus spoke the parrable of the unforgiving servant. Parrables are lessons for living a life pleasing to God and beneficial to us. Jesus said we should pluck out our eyes! Have you plucked out an eye yet? Don't tell me your eyes never caused you to sin.

Your post proves that you haven't submitted yourself to God's Word concerning doctrine building. I cannot do anymore than warn you and hope that you will consider Isaiah 28 and 2 Timothy 2:15. I pray you will take a step back and dwell on these two passages of Scripture and then pray to God (James 1:5).

Do you feel that God has taught you the truth of these matters, or are you relying mostly on what others have told you to believe?

The bottom line is, did you feel the Spirit of Christ teaching you as you studied (not read) or has someone else done most if not all of the teaching?

God Bless!

 

[tamborine lady]

Ed, I agree with you on this:Sorry, your Greek lessons roll off my back
as water off a duck. Speak English, i hear
some do that in your country

I too tire of the Greek and Hebrew and especially the latin from the Catholic crowd.

If you don't put it in english, this ole' redneck gal don't know what you are talking about!!

Peace,

Tam