Eternal Security

[Craigbythesea]

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

What does this mean to you?

It means to me exactly what it says, Paul was confident that He who began a good work in the Christians at Philippi would perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ. The context shows the reason for Paul’s confidence in them,

1. Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:
2. Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
4. always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all,
5. in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now.
6. For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
7. For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.

Paul did not have this confidence concerning the members of the church in Corinth. In fact, he was so concerned about their eternal future that he wrote to them,

1 Corinthians 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


How is it that this man's work is burned in this judgment, yet he is still somehow saved?

The meaning of this passage has been debated for centuries with many conflicting interpretations having been given. I do not know which, if any, of those interpretations are correct, but I will offer one that I believe makes good sense:

We are not saved by works; we are saved by grace through faith. On the Day of Judgment, those persons whose faith is intact will stand before God and their works shall be judged. Works worthy of a reward will result in the doer of the works being rewarded. Works not worthy of a reward will not result in the doer of the works being rewarded. However, those persons whose faith in NOT intact, the spiritually dead, will stand before God and they will be judged according to their works. Their rewards, however, will be administered in the lake of fire rather than in the holy city, New Jerusalem.

One of the most popular non-canonical books used for instruction in the very early Church was The Apocalypse of Peter. In this second-century work that bears Peters name pseudonymously, the rewards for virtuous works and the punishment for evil work are graphically described.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I have to say I am somewhat disappointed to read this from you.

First...nothing "got Christ crucified." He came for the express purpose of going to the Cross. Only He had the power to lay it down, and to take it up again, and your statement here implies He died on the Cross because of His teaching, which implies those who took Him had power over the Christ.

That is refuted by Scripture.

Jesus came to die for our sins, and His teaching that He was God got him crucified—fulfilling His purpose!

Secondly, you go through quite a bit of trouble to deny what is a pretty simple statement:


John 10:27-29


King James Version (KJV)


27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


You deny...

1. Christ bestows eternal life;

2. Those who have eternal life shall never perish;

3. Those who have eternal life will never be plucked out of Christ's hand;

4. Those who have eternal life will never be plucked out of Father's hand.

I have not denied any of these things!

You suggest...

1. Christ does not bestow eternal life, just the promise of it;

2. Those who have eternal life can perish;

3. Those who have eternal life can be plucked out of Christ's and the Father's hand.

I have NOT suggested any of these things!

And we proponents take this passage out of context?

Absolutely! The parallel passage in Isaiah 43:1-28 expressly teaches that those persons who are safe in the hand of God are free to climb out of it if they so choose. Accusing me of denying the very things that I teach, suggesting that I teach what I have never taught, and ignoring what I have actually taught are not valid arguments in favor of your beliefs.

But, I will just remind you that this is not the only passage dealing with the Doctrine of Eternal Security, lol. We proponents of Eternal Security have many such similar, and simple statements which affirm Eternal Security.

No, you do not!

Secondly, we can see that the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) not only nullify these simple statements in their hearts, but they cannot even be said to understand the context of many such passages, because they do not fully understand salvation itself.

Not true!

In the following statements you equate Israel with the Church, and equate the benefits of being under the Covenant of Law with the benefits of being in relationship with God through the New Covenant.

No, I do NOT!

 

[Darrell C]

You deny...

1. Christ bestows eternal life;

2. Those who have eternal life shall never perish;

3. Those who have eternal life will never be plucked out of Christ's hand;

4. Those who have eternal life will never be plucked out of Father's hand.

I have not denied any of these things!

The very concept of having life in Christ, then that ending, is what you are teaching. It does not matter how you teach it, it still stands in direct contradiction to many passages that teach this is an event through which we are changed in our very natures Not some figurative change, but a literal resurrection of our spirit. That is the reason why I pointed out your position ignores this. We pass from death to life. This is eternal life, and if eternal life can be taken away, then we open the door to questioning God's eternality. Questioning eternal punishment. And many do this.

I know you don't see it this way, Craig, but that is the implication of your teaching. It demands works which, while we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, at no time concerning salvation does man participate in the bestowal. No man asked God to come to die in their sin, they never understood that this was needful. No man hung on the Cross with Christ contributing to Atonement, He accomplished that according to God's pre-foundational plan (before the world was made).

Again, the primary problem I see, Craig, is the merging of the Ages. You equate conditions in the Old Testament with the conditions that arose when the promises of God were fulfilled in Christ.

You suggest...

1. Christ does not bestow eternal life, just the promise of it;

2. Those who have eternal life can perish;

3. Those who have eternal life can be plucked out of Christ's and the Father's hand.

I have NOT suggested any of these things!

Not intentionally, I'm sure, but this is the logical conclusion one draws from such doctrine. It is riding the fence between grace and works.

If the promise of eternal life is not, as Scripture teaches, received upon salvation, then it is still a promise not fulfilled. If one is in the hand of Christ, then out, then this nullifies the concept Christ teaches...we are secure in His Hand. You miss that due to your position.

Here is the unbeliever in regards to the hand of God:


Hebrews 10:30-31

King James Version (KJV)


30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



Of course, the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) misunderstand this passage as well, so I am wondering if you, Craig, can place this into a proper Biblical context.

And we proponents take this passage out of context?

Absolutely! The parallel passage in Isaiah 43:1-28 expressly teaches that those persons who are safe in the hand of God are free to climb out of it if they so choose. Accusing me of denying the very things that I teach, suggesting that I teach what I have never taught, and ignoring what I have actually taught are not valid arguments in favor of your beliefs.

Not sure why you would think I am "accusing you of denying what you teach." I am addressing what you are teaching.

But back to taking things out of context: you are equating Israel with salvation in Christ, when Scripture is clear that salvation has never been obtained through heritage, but by faith and obedience to God's will (faith expressed through obedience). We do not nullify the fact that the faith God has always generated among men was through His Own initial contact with men and women, nor corrupt this principle to a rewards system (Obey and be "saved"), because we deal with the simple fact that men have to be made aware of their condition before we ascribe response in a salvific context.

Israel was the source of provision for the people God created in them. That provision, though, cannot, and must not...be equated to the Provision we have in Christ. When Christ told His disciples "I am the True Vine," in view is the coming decision Israel would make, to remain in the provision they had been afforded, or to embrace the Provision that the promises of God held. We see this same concept in the Tree of Romans 11, where the L.O.S.T always make the Tree...salvation. Hence, they teach that Romans 11 shows those saved who were "cut out of salvation," when that is simply not the case. What they were cut out of was the provision for relationship with God...through unbelief. And as I said, one must first make unbelievers to be believers in order to present a case for loss of salvation. Those who were cut out were members of Israel..and they were unbelievers. Those grafted in were grafted in through belief. But we still see that those cut out were in the Tree, so we must identify what that Tree is, then we can properly understand the context as it regards to Eternal Salvation.

So I ask you now, Craig, do you really believe that men were saved on an eternal basis by keeping the Covenant of Law? Does the Writer of Hebrews make a mistake is saying...they didn't keep it?

This one aspect to your position is a fundamental error many make, and if it is corrected, you will see the magnitude of what Christ accomplished. There is a distinct difference set forth in Scripture that separates the promises God has made from the beginning with the realization of that promise.

One example I would give you is this: if God made "one of the twain," then we can safely say that both Jew and Gentile in Christ are something that they were not previously, right? And since they are neither Jew nor Greek, we do not view the Gentile as being made a Jew when he is saved, nor is the Jew made a Gentile. This means that those who are grafted in are not grafted into Israel, as a continuation of a previous work of God, but they are both made partakers of what was not available before.

Just think about that.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

But, I will just remind you that this is not the only passage dealing with the Doctrine of Eternal Security, lol. We proponents of Eternal Security have many such similar, and simple statements which affirm Eternal Security.

No, you do not!

Actually we do, and rather than simply post a slew of proof-texts, how about we take a look at one simple statement in Scripture that affirms Eternal Security:


Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



"Perfection" is here used in a context of remission of sins. Just as God promised complete remission of sins in the New Covenant...



Hebrews 8:10-12

King James Version (KJV)


10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


...and the simple understanding we can rest in is that if God has, when we are sanctified, forgiven us completely forever...how can one then commit sin in which his /her Eternal Security is compromised. Again, we look at you equating the Covenant of Law to the New Covenant, equating the conditions, equating the benefits of that relationship, but, there is no comparison. The Writer of Hebrews makes this point over and over. Start in Hebrews 10:1 and read up to v.14, and see if you do not see that.

This is why the Sacrifice of Christ needed only be accomplished once.

Secondly, we can see that the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) not only nullify these simple statements in their hearts, but they cannot even be said to understand the context of many such passages, because they do not fully understand salvation itself.

Not true!

It is true. Most of the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) equate the Covenant of Law with the New Covenant. Eternal Redemption, they feel, was obtained by the Old Testament Saint, who obviously died...still in need of Atonement:



Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)


12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

In the following statements you equate Israel with the Church, and equate the benefits of being under the Covenant of Law with the benefits of being in relationship with God through the New Covenant.

No, I do NOT!

You do, Craig: are you now saying there is a difference between Israel "being in the hand of God" from which he can walk away from and the Born Again Believer who cannot be plucked out?

You said, after quoting Isaiah...

In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and made promises to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithfully abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.

Not only do you equate the "salvation" Israel received with being in relationship with God through Christ, but you place the maintenance of salvation squarely...

...into the hands of the believer.

Men do not decide to be saved, God initiates that salvation, first enlightening them to their condition that they might repent.

Men who have been born again and indwelt by God do not "choose to remain:"

Here is God's promise to His people, Craig:


Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Even when we are saved, Craig, when we perform works which might be considered "good," it is not because we are in ourselves holy and righteous. We perform those good works we were created in Christ Jesus unto for one reason: God has enabled us to understand His heart and will, and for the first time we see reality from an eternal perspective. Before we are saved and indwelt by God, we stand in a condition utterly incapable of recognizing sin in our lives, and how far from God we are, though we may lead lives which from our perspective are moral.

It's kind of the opposite of Peter rebuking Christ when he hears the Gospel, "Far be it from thee, Lord...this shall never happen unto thee!" The thought that we would, after having been saved, reject the one thing that we know is our salvation, is utterly ridiculous. Those who say "I was saved but now I am not" routinely fail to have the ability to say how they were "saved" to begin with. Many of them replicate the error of the Jew, and think that because of their heritage they were saved. "I grew up in the Church," they say, but do not, like those of Israel, understand this cannot endear one to God.

While it is true Christians can fall into sin, again we consider that God will perform the work He has begun in us. Should one fall into sin severe enough to incur God's wrath, we see that it is physical death they are in danger of, not the Second Death (i.e., those who partake of Communion unworthily, Ananias and Sapphira).

Eternal Life means just that, and it is accomplished through the Work of Christ, both upon the Cross and even now. We obtain Eternal Life through the indwelling of God, rather than eternal life being a mere substance poured into us, or a figure of speech. Your position shows an opportunity for eternal life, whereas Scripture makes it clear it is eternal life which is bestowed at the time of salvation. Again, we consider that we have passed from death to life, which is a change in the condition of man from lost to saved according to the standard of the New Covenant.


God bless.