Eternal Security

[Lorelei]

I think the belief that we can lose our salvation stems from the fact that our human nature is itching to play a part in the salvation process. We are told in the Bible that salvation is not of works, and there is no denying that. So in response, we say "Ok, Lord, I can't do anything to save myself, so you do it all, but I will make sure I stay saved."

There have been verses presented, but there really doesn't need to be. Eternal is just that, eternal, it does not mean temporal or conditional. Man can do nothing to save himself and he can do nothing to keep himself saved. It is vanity to think otherwise.

~Lorelei

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
I
There have been verses presented, but there really doesn't need to be. Eternal is just that, eternal, it does not mean temporal or conditional. Man can do nothing to save himself and he can do nothing to keep himself saved. It is vanity to think otherwise.

~Lorelei

That is true...as far as it goes. One does have to RECEIVE the salvation God provides through faith. One who has (present tense) faith has (present tense) eternal life. Those who reject the faith or "apostasize" from the faith do NOT have eternal life.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I am a believer in "Once saved, always saved". (I'm not saying that gives us a license to sin).

I am so glad salvation is for eternity and it is in God's hands, not mine, because if there was something I could do to mess it up...I'm sure I would.

Sue

 

[The Harvest]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Those who reject the faith or "apostasize" from the faith do NOT have eternal life.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If you believe on the Son you have everlasting life. Everlasting has no beginning and no end. We have a hard time understanding something that truly is eternal. Our eternal life really isn't ours it's Christ's. Once your spirit is joined with Christ's (1 Cor 6:17) you are apart of His eternal life. So we think of our eternal life having a starting point, when in reality once we are joined together with His Spirit, we have always had eternal life. And Christ's eternal life is never ending. He can't have it and then not have it and if we are one with Him, then we can't have it and then not have it either. Otherwise it isn't eternal.

Should God offer this to us? I don't think so. I certainly don't deserve it, and neither do any of you. But thank God he offered this free gift to us because He loved us so much. Should God keep a person who gets saved and then rejects that salvation? No, not in my mind. But the Bible says He does. This does not give a person the ticket to sin at will. They will pay for that when they receive the things done in their body at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

 

[The Harvest]

Originally posted by I Am Blessed 16:
I am so glad salvation is for eternity and it is in God's hands, not mine, because if there was something I could do to mess it up...I'm sure I would.

As would all the rest of us too.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus :
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (KJV)

When God justifies a man, He forgives him of his sins. He declares that the demands of the law have been satisfied, so far as this man is concerned, and that he is free from the eternal consequences of his sins. On grounds that God considers sufficient, He declares that He no longer holds the man’s sins against him. He is pardoned. His sins are remitted. He is no longer under condemnation. No power on earth, or beyond the earth can ever bring the eternal consequences of that man’s sins upon him. God has pardoned him.

When the governor of a state pardons a man, he declares that this man does not have to serve the sentence that has been pronounced against him. On grounds that are sufficient to the governor, he sets the man free. There is no power in the state that can lay hold of the man and make him serve his sentence when the governor has pardoned him. In the same way, when God pardons a man He declares that on grounds that are sufficient to Him He has set the man free. He is free forever.

In justification, God not only declares that the man is pardoned, but He declares that he is restored to divine favor. He is to be treated, from now on, as a man who has never sinned. There is no way in heaven or on earth for this man to be made to serve the sentence for or pay the wages of his sin.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
On the other hand, wasn't Peter restored after "disowning" Christ?

It is true that Peter disowned Christ. But that was before Pentacost and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[mountainrun]

So? Nowhere can the Bible be said to show loss of salvation, either before or after Pentecost.
God has taken the lives of disobedient believers but this does not mean He removed His gift of grace.
Remember, it is by grace we are saved, through faith. If the faith is removed, this does not mean that God will go back on His promise or guarantees.

The passages always used to prove loss of salvation never say this in so many words.
It is always the interpretation of those with a point to prove that is read into these passages.
The passage referring to one making a shipwreck of their faith simply means backsliding and cannot be proven to mean loss of salvation.
Other passages refer to people who did not have a saving faith in the first place.
We've all seen them.
They come to church, say and do all the right things, and soon fall away into their old true selves.
They did not lose something they never had.

As for us, when we are faithless, He is faithful.

MR

 

[Artimaeus]

Timothy,

Luke 8:13 Parable: Four groups, first 3 don't believe, last one believes and is saved. That 2nd group you cited received the word but did not respond to it. Faith that does not produce works is not faith at all.

Matthew 24:13 and Mark 13:13 are talking about the tribulation period. It is saying that during this time if you can manage to survive there is hope of being rescued at the end of the tribuylation. Saved doesn't always mean salvation of the soul.

Mark 5:13, (I assume you mean Matt 5:13) The question is not, If a man lose his grace, how shall that grace be restored to him? but, Since living Christianity is the only "salt of the earth," if men lose that, what else can supply its place? What follows is the appalling answer to this question.

John 15:6 The saved abide in him, the unsaved don't. This verse doesn't even hint that this man EVER abode in Christ.

Romans 11:22 Please read the entire chapter, it is talking about the nation of Israel and the Gentiles, not individual Christians.. It is talking about how that grafting the Jews back in will be an easier task than grafting in the Gentiles because they are "naturally" a part of the original plant.

1 Corinthians 9:27 Castaway = unapproved. He lost the race. The race isn't to the salvation finish line, it is to the successful Christian life finish line. Paul is telling the Corinthians that if even he has to worry about controlling himself how much more should they..

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 Reading verse 12 as saying , "let him that is saved take heed lest he lose that salvation.", is missing the point. God is saying that the Jew were our examples to keep us from evil and to be well pleasing to him. They committed evil and died, if we commit evil and become unpleasing to God we may die also. They didn't stop being Jews, they died. We will not stop being Christians we may die.

Galations 6:7 Thank you for making my point. If I sow to the Spirit and don't reap life everlasting then God is mocked. It is true in the big things (salvation) and it is true in the small things (well doing).

1 Timothy 4:1 Some people within the church will be apostate, some shall depart from "the faith", doctrine, truth. In context it is talking about teachings, not grace.

2 Timothy 2:11,12 If the "we" in vs 11-13 are Christians then the "them" and "they" in v14 must not be, but that wouldn't be right. These are logic questions posed to Timothy. If…then, is used the way we use it a lot on this board. I find it interesting that in this section of the Bible that includes the admonition to rightly divide the word of truth we have some who say that when I end up in heaven I will be able to say that I did "something" to assure my place there.

Hebrews 6:4 This does indeed prove that you can't get saved then lost and then saved again. It doesn't however, prove you can get lost. The author (God) is making the point that salvation is a one time deal, and that IF it were possible (not that it is) that would be the end of it.

Hebrews 6:12 Look at the phrases in this section, "full assurance", "through faith and patience inherit", "Surely blessing I will bless thee", "strong consolation", "anchor of the soul"," both sure and stedfast".God made us a promise and it is IMPOSSIBLE for our hope to be unsure.

Hebrews 10:26-29 This is one I wish I had thought of first. Nothing does more despite to the Spirit of Grace than the idea that works can keep it. Nothing trods the Son of God under foot more than to say his sacrifice wasn't enough by itself. Nothing counts the blood more unholy (not able to separate us to God) than insecurity.

Hebrews 10:39 This is true. We ARE NOT of them that draw back unto perdition. Christians don't do that.

1 John 5:16 Nothing to do with salvation.

Revelation 3:5 Best answer is I John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[Tim too]

Maybe the problem with this concept of Apostasy that the scriptures I have listed illustrate is our understanding of salvation. Maybe we need to rethink our understanding of salvation. I have been a Baptist all of my life. I was just like some of you, a staunch defender of once saved always saved (OSAS). It has been generally presented to me in my Baptist experience that you sincerely pray asking Christ to save you after you admit you are a sinner. This of course involves repentance on our part and a believing heart. After these criteria are met the general presentation that I received was that person was saved. Done deal.

In studying I've come to the conclusion that this is not the picture the Bible presents it is not a done deal. The writer of Hebrews said chapter 10 verse 29, “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” I believe that we need to focus on our salvation being a covenant relationship with God. Someone requested that we use KJV only in these replies so I have respectfully complied. However if you look up the word “testament” in the KJV and look at those verses in other translations you will very often find the word “covenant.” Some have claimed that we are just trying to get a hand in our salvation, to this I resolutely say NO! The covenant is God’s deal. He sent Christ for us. He drew us to Himself. He gives us the staying power if we abide in Him. All we bring to this relationship is our will (which is really a gift from Him too) and submit to Him.

This covenant relationship adequately explains the passages that refer to nothing separating us from the love of God, no one being able to remove us from God’s hand and others like it because so far as it depends on God it is a done deal. He is faithful and true and does not break His covenants.

The concept of the covenant relationship also adequately explains the many, many exhortations in the Bible to endure, persevere, and grow in the Lord. Unfortunately we do break our covenants. We can either be obedient or disobedient to the Spirit. Paul said in Galations 6:8-9 “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”

Think about Jesus’ example of Him being the vine and us being the branches and that of Paul’s example of the olive tree. In both cases we are told to abide or continue in Him. The Bible is full of exhortations to persevere or endure (search the word patience in KJV). Why all of those urgent pleas to endure until the end if we already will? I mean no disrespect but maybe some of the Church fathers whom we rely so heavy upon for our doctrine may not have had a complete understanding of scripture. I know I don’t and I would dare say that the only Man who does is Jesus. So maybe it is time to humbly reexamine this doctrine praying for guidance and wisdom from the Holy Spirit.

In the love of Christ,
Timothy

 

[Tim too]

Artimaeus and Mountainrun,

Thanks for your replies. I sense you have dismissed these scriptures in light of your intrepretation of others and based upon a doctrine or doctrines you are posed to defend. I invite you to examine these scriptures in the light of their context with a open mind and a prayer for the Holy Spirit to show you if you are wrong. I will do the same.

In the love of Christ,
Timothy

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Timothy,
You continue to make good points. I don't think that these passages can be explained away or dismissed as easily as some might suggest. For example, it was said that the Romans 11 passage was referring to Israel and the Gentiles but NOT to individual salvation. If one reads verse 19, however, it states: "You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in" which is obviously the senitment of individual believers. Paul's response to those individuals was (v. 20-22): "Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity, but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." It seems that Paul wrote this by the inspiration of God as a warning that is meant to be heeded.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Timothy L.:
Artimaeus and Mountainrun,

Thanks for your replies. I sense you have dismissed these scriptures in light of your intrepretation of others and based upon a doctrine or doctrines you are posed to defend. I invite you to examine these scriptures in the light of their context with a open mind and a prayer for the Holy Spirit to show you if you are wrong. I will do the same.

In the love of Christ,
Timothy

I have not "dismissed" any scripture. From the concept of being born again to the actualization of heaven is a journey. Once you have been born you can't undo that, but HOW you behave on the journey is your choice and what you do along the way is your choice. Whether you are a prime example of what a Christian should be or you are a poor excuse for a Christian is something we have control over. If my behavior determines whether or not I will make it to heaven, then I am sorry, but I am not going to make it and neither are you. My behavior, however, will determine how effective and how useful I am for the cause of Christ. I am not good enough to get to heaven, I never have been, and I never will be. I don't get to heaven with Christ's help, He doesn't get me to heaven with my help. If I help, then I get some credit. Saved doesn't mean I am on my way to heaven but I might not get there. I am not saved from heaven. I am saved from hell and that means I am not going there. If I go to hell then I wasn't saved from it. If salvation is in the present tense then I CAN'T go to hell. I AM saved from hell. Either I am RIGHT NOW saved from hell or I am NOT RIGHT NOW saved from hell. You can't have it both ways. You can't say I AM saved from hell but I might go to hell. You seem to want to say that I am on my way to being saved from hell. Please, explain how it is possible to be saved from hell and yet go to hell. This isn't merely a difference of opinion like whether you like one lump of sugar in your tea or two lumps. This is a matter of, it either is true or it is not. Salvation is either a present possession or it is not.

 

[rufus]

ETERNAL SAVIOUR = ETERNAL SALVATION= ETERNAL SECURITY!!

John 10:28-29:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

rufus

 

[The Harvest]

amen arti. that's good.

 

[The Harvest]

The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

thanks rufus.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

"...though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." Hebrews 5:8-9

Peace.

 

[christine]

I would like to thank you all for the scripture you provided supproting eternal salvation. I used to know all the verses by heart, but It's been so long. I have been making a file so that I can witness to my husband, I would feel much better if I could show him in writing.

[ February 27, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: christine ]

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
"...though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." Hebrews 5:8-9

Peace.

Yes, obey Him how? What did HE say we had to receive that salvation?

John 5:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV

We try to equate obeying with "obeying rules" or "obeying the law." A person receives eternal life by obeying the One who gives that life. His Word says if you believe in name of Jesus Christ you will be saved. That is what we are to obey. We are to be obedient and believe, otherwise we are condemned already.

~Lorelei

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
"...though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." Hebrews 5:8-9

Peace.

and the author of temporary salvation to those who disobey him. Is this really what you are saying? If I must be perfect to retain this salvation then what hope do I have? You know that I will disobey him during my life, frequently and often. Did I get saved by faith but continue in it by works? "...to all who obey him", sure sound like I must obey him or lose my salvation doesn't it? I have obeyed him. I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior with all of the ramifications to that concept. I cannot obey every command at all times and neither can anyone else. No one can stay saved with the way you are expressing it.

Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Answer: faith) 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Answer: I would have to be foolish to believe that I am now made complete by my own works)

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Is the Holy Spirit someone that He gives when we obey and takes back when we disobey?
The salvation that I have right now is eternal (based on Christ's finished work on the cross) or it is temporary (based on Christ's perfect work AND my imperfect works).