Eternal Security

[Doubting Thomas]

So one can claim to accept Christ as Lord and Savior and not do the things He commands? Jesus said otherwise:
"A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Matt 5:18-19
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Matt 5:21
"But he who endures to the end will be saved" Matt 10:22
"He who has My commandments (plural) and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him." John 14:21
"If anyone doe not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned"
John 15:6
"To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God" Rev 2:7
"He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." Rev 2:11
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels." Rev 3:5

Of course, no one obeys perfectly. that's why we need to keep confessing our sin before Christ since "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). We need to continue abiding in Christ because without Him we can do nothing. We must "work out(not, work FOR) our own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Phil 2:12-13) However, if one claims to be a Christian based on a profession of faith he once made, and he is no longer interested in the things of God and is walking in disobedience, can one honestly say that this one is saved based on Scripture?

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Rom 8:13-14
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?...Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead." James 2:14,17
"If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him." 1 John 2:29
"Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning." 1 John 3:6-8
"In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother." 1 John 3:10
"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15
"He who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." 1 John 3:24

Of course, there are many others, but these are some good verses to ponder for now.

Peace.

 

[Jim1999]

I think the "once saved, always saved" cliche has led to confusion about the doctrine of eternal security. Yes, the salvation of the elect is secure.

What we prefer is the preservation of the saints, rather than the misleading blanket eternal security. Those who are redeemed WILL continue along the path of sanctification and not randomly falling away. There might be periods of doubt and periods when we are less obedient that we ought,,example Peter, denying the Lord three times...the experience of doubting Thomas,,,,,,and not our Brother writing here......These are natural experiences along the pathway of faith.

There are far too many scriptures referring to our security in God's hands. These scriptures are absolute, the same in any translation, and beyond any misunderstanding. So, we must understand this doctrine in light of these passages, which far outweigh, theologically, the few scriptures which seem to indicate otherwise.

That is the way I see it.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[tyndale1946]

In my belief as a Primitive Baptist... We are OSAS!... Does the scriptures ever talk about losing your Eternal Salvation... NO!... That is an offense to God and an insult to Jesus Christ the Lamb of God that shed his blood for you and all his children on Calvary.

The Angel Gabriel told the virgin Mary that she would give birth to a son and she shall call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins... Now the question is do we question what the Angel Gabriel told Mary?... He will save his people and not lose a one that the Father gave him. That is scriptural... doctrinal... and biblical truth!

Another thing is the scriptures NEVER contradict themselves... If a scripture contradicts another scripture YOUR interpretation is in error... That is the plain and simple truth!... A rule of thumb when speaking of Eternal Salvation... If the salvation speaking of is something you have to do to get it... It is not eternal salvation but salvation as you live in the world... There is a time salvation... The Old and New Testament are full of illustrations of it.

Some will say I am saved because I believed... Then tackle these scriptures that state we are all included both Jews and Gentiles in unbelief that God might have mercy on all!

Romans 11:[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?

[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

To God and his Son and Our Savior Jesus Christ be all the glory!... OSAS!... Brother Glen

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
I think the "once saved, always saved" cliche has led to confusion about the doctrine of eternal security. Yes, the salvation of the elect is secure.

What we prefer is the preservation of the saints, rather than the misleading blanket eternal security. Those who are redeemed WILL continue along the path of sanctification and not randomly falling away. There might be periods of doubt and periods when we are less obedient that we ought,,example Peter, denying the Lord three times...the experience of doubting Thomas,,,,,,and not our Brother writing here......These are natural experiences along the pathway of faith.

Well said, Jim.

 

[HankD]

Eternal Life 101

John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

1 John 5
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

These Scripture teach that:

We don't have a part-time Savior.

Jesus will never never (double negative in Greek) throw me out.

Jesus won't lose any of us,

Eternal life means just what it says: it is life that goes on for eternity.

No one can remove me from the Father's hand because He is greater than all (including me).

We have eternal life and we know it because it all depends on God and none of me.

Conclusion:
If I didn't save myself, I can't lose me either.

End of class, you will be tested.

HankD

 

[mountainrun]

We are either eternally secure by grace or we are saved by works.
The only way you could lose salvation is by works.
If salvation is by faith and must be maintained by works, I submit that the standard must be perfection.

Good luck.

MR

 

[Artimaeus]

Psa 62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved

Faith and then Salvation and then Works. The three are always there and always in that order. I AM saved from the punishment of sins, I AM BEING saved from the power of sin, and I WILL BE saved from the presence of sin. (cliche but accurate). If salvation is a present experience then what am I saved from? I mean, people say they are saved now but if they end up in hell then what were they saved from back when they were saved?

 

[The Harvest]

Another thing is the scriptures NEVER contradict themselves... If a scripture contradicts another scripture YOUR interpretation is in error... That is the plain and simple truth!...

bro glen, this has got to be one of the most intelligent things i have seen on the BB to date. if only more people would realize this simple truth. The Bible is God's Word. God is not a simple being like us. there are times when His Words do not make sense to us because we are simple little humans who need time to study and learn. just because we don't understand something doesn't make it any less truthful.

by the way, a lot of the verses i'm seeing used on here to dispute the OSAS position could be very easily understood by looking at them from a dispensational viewpoint. there are quite a few verses that do not apply to the current dispensation. and that's where most of the confusion of losing your salvation comes in.

 

[Tim too]

Artimaeus,
Please forgive my use of the term "dismiss." I did not intend that as a jab. I am suggesting that you are not considering these verses on their on merit and in their context. Rather interpreting them in light of your doctrine of OSAS. I recognize this because I did the same thing.

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
From the concept of being born again to the actualization of heaven is a journey. Once you have been born you can't undo that,...

You are right you cannot be unborn. Being born again is talking about being born of Spirit and water i.e. a spiritual birth. You can die and this is the very thing that many Christians do. They starve to death. They don't pray, they don't study God's word, and eventually they go right back to their preconversion life because they have died spiritually.

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
...but HOW you behave on the journey is your choice and what you do along the way is your choice.

If we have a choice of how we respond to the Holy Spirit's leading and conviction then following that to its logical conclusion we have the possibility of rejecting or disowning Christ. The Bible says that if we disown Him He will disown us.

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
If my behavior determines whether or not I will make it to heaven, then I am sorry, but I am not going to make it and neither are you. My behavior, however, will determine how effective and how useful I am for the cause of Christ. I am not good enough to get to heaven, I never have been, and I never will be. I don't get to heaven with Christ's help, He doesn't get me to heaven with my help. If I help, then I get some credit.

It is your faith in Christ that determines your salvation not your works. Salvation is 100% God's deal. Salvation is 100% God's deal. Salvation is 100% God's deal. Please forgive the repetitiveness. This is not to be smart or disrespectful, but I don't anyone to hear me saying anything else. He made the Way. He called me to the Way. He gives me the power to endure if I abide in Him. He even gave me the ability to choose to obey or disobey. I get no credit. I have no boast.

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
If salvation is in the present tense then I CAN'T go to hell. I AM saved from hell. Either I am RIGHT NOW saved from hell or I am NOT RIGHT NOW saved from hell. You can't have it both ways. You can't say I AM saved from hell but I might go to hell. You seem to want to say that I am on my way to being saved from hell. Please, explain how it is possible to be saved from hell and yet go to hell. This isn't merely a difference of opinion like whether you like one lump of sugar in your tea or two lumps. This is a matter of, it either is true or it is not. Salvation is either a present possession or it is not.

Your concept of salvation may be like mine was. A sinner prays a prayer (providing that he/she repented and he/she was sincere) and that is it done deal. I believe that my concept of salvation was wrong. I believe that it is a covenant relationship with God. Christ said Himself, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Matt 26:28 KJV Testament means not a part of the Bible new vs. old, but covenant. We enter this covenant agreement when we accept the sacrifice Jesus made for our sins. We take Jesus as our Lord, which means we obey Him. God doesn't force obedience, we submit. We can also rebel, thus the need to go to God for forgiveness when the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin.

Here is a better mental picture of what happens in salvation. Bear in mind that it is a picture and in not complete. God is on a ship. We through Adam have jumped ship and broken fellowship with God. We are drowning in a sea of sin a good distance from the ship. God made a way for us to be saved, the life ring Jesus. He calls out to us and throws us the ring. We grab the ring and exclaim, "thank God I'm saved!" because right at that moment we are no longer drowning. By clinging to the life ring, Jesus we are saved from the death of drowning in our sins and will ultimately be saved for eternity. God begins to pull us to the ship. At anytime we can let go of the ring. If we hold onto this ring, Jesus we will be saved. If we do not hold on until God gets us in we will not be saved. "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matt 24:12 KJV

I don't believe in jump in jump out of salvation. I believe that when a person comes to the point of disowning Christ there is no return. This I believe is the biblical portrait of apostasy.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by The Harvest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Another thing is the scriptures NEVER contradict themselves... If a scripture contradicts another scripture YOUR interpretation is in error... That is the plain and simple truth!...

bro glen, this has got to be one of the most intelligent things i have seen on the BB to date. if only more people would realize this simple truth. The Bible is God's Word. God is not a simple being like us. there are times when His Words do not make sense to us because we are simple little humans who need time to study and learn. just because we don't understand something doesn't make it any less truthful.

by the way, a lot of the verses i'm seeing used on here to dispute the OSAS position could be very easily understood by looking at them from a dispensational viewpoint. there are quite a few verses that do not apply to the current dispensation. and that's where most of the confusion of losing your salvation comes in. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that the Scripture don't contradict themselves and we are simple humans.

However you contradict yourself with what you said about interpretation, especially interpretations that try to sew all the difficulties we have understanding Scripture into a neat little package for us.

The ONLY person who has had a complete understanding of the Scriptures was Jesus Christ. Where did you get your interpretation and where did I get mine? From a man or you yourself developed it still it came from a finite man trying to understand revelation from an infinite God. If we were submitted in perfect obedience to Him all the time we may be able to have a perfect understanding of Scripture. But that will not happen in this life. Check out what Paul said, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1 Cor 13:12 KJV My point is this not one of us has a completely perfect interpretation of Scripture. If it possible you and I don't have a perfect understanding of Scripture it is possible that some of the church fathers that we depend on so heavily didn't either.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

PS I would seriously consider questioning pretribulation dispensationalism too.

 

[Sherrie]

John10:27-29;

27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


These are one of my favorite verses. I think this says it. I agree with Caretaker on this topic.

Sherrie

 

[The Harvest]

PS I would seriously consider questioning pretribulation dispensationalism too.

I would seriously consider studying your Bible.

 

[Sherrie]

I do not understand Timothy's arguement. I think somehow I missed something.

What exactly is he/are you arguing? That your salvation can be plucked from you; or that God's word is not the same today as yesterday?

Or are you saying the scripture is not God's word?

Sherrie

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Timothy L.:

PS I would seriously consider questioning pretribulation dispensationalism too.

Amen! Though, I consider myself a dispensationalist of sorts, I see no evidence for a pre-trib rapture in Scripture. (Of course, this probably belongs under another thread

)

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by The Harvest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> PS I would seriously consider questioning pretribulation dispensationalism too.

I would seriously consider studying your Bible.

</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks

I have studied it and do study it now but always good advice. I was just like you believing in OSAS and the rapture until someone challenged me to examine what I had been taught. I did with an open mind. I am not willing to let go of one thing I was taught growing up that squares with the word of God. But I am not called to be a Baptist I am called to a relationship with Christ anything that does not square with the word of God I will reject, even being a Baptist if it came to that. Have you seriously looked at any other endtime scenario other that pre-trib dispensationalism? If you haven’t and you are up for the challenge, check out this web site. http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Sherrie:
I do not understand Timothy's arguement. I think somehow I missed something.

What exactly is he/are you arguing? That your salvation can be plucked from you; or that God's word is not the same today as yesterday?

Or are you saying the scripture is not God's word?

Sherrie

Hi Sherrie,

Not that your salvation can be plucked from you but that you (because of your carnality) could come to the point where you could reject Christ and lose you salvation. Apostasy

I am not saying in anyway that Scripture is not God's word. However the interperetation of Scripture is not God's word, only man's opinion of what God's word means.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Tim too]

QUOTE]Originally posted by Sherrie:
John10:27-29;

27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


These are one of my favorite verses. I think this says it. I agree with Caretaker on this topic.

Sherrie [/QUOTE]

Amen and agreed,

No one can pluck you out of the Father's hand and nothing can separate you from the love of God.

Salvation is a covenant relationship, an agreement between God and us. Look at the number of times it is called covenant/testament in the NT. God does all the work in the deal and we agree to submit our will to Him and begin to become conformed to the image of His Son.

He is faithful, He is powerful, and He is forgiving. He will not break His part of the agreement and no one or no thing can make Him break it. If we mess up and the Holy Spirit convicts us and we are supposed to repent. If we do and continue to repent when we sin, all is well and our salvation is a sure thing.

We are to submit our will to His perfect will. You can look at your own life and know that that doesn't happen all the time. When we mess up the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin to bring us to repentance. We can choose to be obedient or we can continue in our sin. If we continue in our sin we harden our hearts. We become insensitive to the Holy Spirit's leading and conviction. God chastises us to bring us to repentance. If we still persist in our sin we can come to a point where it is possible to disown/reject God. This is apostasy I believe. Once we reach this point there is no being brought back to repentance.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[mountainrun]

Tim, you are ignoring the fact that God doesn't save us because of our faith, but because of His love for us.
Eph. 2:4-9. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions..

As you know this is the passage which says that we are saved by grace {undeserved favor} through faith {a gift from God.}

Now if faith is a gift from God, it is irrevocable according to Romans 11:29.


Whoever drinks of the water Jesus gives us will never thirst again.
To say that we will is to call God a liar.

Has anyone who has ever drunk of the water of Jesus become thirsty again?

You say yes. Jesus says no.

MR

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by mountainrun:
Tim, you are ignoring the fact that God doesn't save us because of our faith, but because of His love for us.
Eph. 2:4-9. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions..

As you know this is the passage which says that we are saved by grace {undeserved favor} through faith {a gift from God.}

I understand that He offers salvation to us because He loves us. We receive His salvation through faith. Do we not have to receive God's gift of salvation?

Originally posted by mountainrun:
Now if faith is a gift from God, it is irrevocable according to Romans 11:29.

That passage says the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable if you interpret Paul to be talking about individual salvation then you can make a case. I believe the context indicates that Paul is talking about Israel and her call to salvation. I believe that Paul is saying just because Israel has rejected in general Christ now that doesn't mean that God has canceled His offer of salvation to them.

Originally posted by mountainrun:
Whoever drinks of the water Jesus gives us will never thirst again.
To say that we will is to call God a liar.

Has anyone who has ever drunk of the water of Jesus become thirsty again?

You say yes. Jesus says no.

Jesus also said, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned." John 15:4-6 KJV

Whoever doesn't abide in Christ is cast forth and burned. Unsaved folks never were abiding in Christ. Christ warns us against this possibility. To say it is not possible "is to call God a liar."

Is it possible to not abide and be cast forth and burned? You say no, Jesus says yes.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Matthew 16:24]

Tim
Just wanted to say I agree with you. I have read all those scriptures before and have came to the same conclusion as you. They make perfect sense and I can not believe other members do not see it.
link:OSAS Scriptual???

IT IS A WORKS BASED SALVATION :

This is again the farthest thing from the truth. Salvation is solely based on a person’s Belief in the finished work of the cross, Repentance for sins, and acceptance of Christ to come and rule and reign in their heart. Obeying the commands of the infallible Word of God from that point on to the best of your ability follows conversion. Works are the product of Obedience to God’s directives. Again, this is another tactic by Eternal Security believers to make their view credible. It is a matter of not being obedient; not how many works are evident. If a person is not obedient there will not be any works, that is a pretty simple deduction.

I would like to take this time to explain what I consider to be the dangers of both views. The Eternal Security view is dangerous in the main aspect that it gives the false impression that a Christian can do whatever they want without fear of any retribution. The only retribution they consider is that there will be no rewards when they get to heaven. Is that really retribution? Is that any deterrent to living any way they please? The danger I believe in this view, not only that it is not Biblical, but that it gives the believer a sense (whether intended or not) that they have a license to sin.

The dangers of the belief in losing your salvation are; the thought that one sin and you are lost and repent and you are saved again. Salvation should never be based on fear, but on the respect and reverence of a Just God. God does not want us to serve Him out of fear, but out of Love, and Obedience. God does not want "robots" either that is why our choice is never taken away to "Obey or not". As mentioned before, the fact of losing one’s salvation is not a simple thing, and should not be treated lightly. My contention has always been and always will be that if you teach Christians to live for God with all their heart and the best they can on a daily basis; then neither side of this conflict becomes an issue.

[ March 01, 2003, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: Matthew 16:24 ]