Eternal Security

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
We all interpret scripture, and therefore, what early believers thought about certain passages of scripture is important. The closer we can get to New Testament understanding is always important.

The key to eternal security is in the theological understanding of perseverance of the saints. He who has begun a good work in you, will continue.....the continuance is the work of God.

How do we deal with those who have fallen away is a matter of speculation. If the former be true, then the latter is a phenomenon that we can only speculate that perhaps they were never saved in the first place...

Jim,

I agree with you about getting back as close to the early believers as possible. I want to get as close to the early church as Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Jude, James, and whoever wrote Hebrews.

Thank God He made that possible through the preservation of His word.

I disagree with you on the perseverance of the saints as understood by John Calvin. I don't believe the Bible teaches that the saints will persevere unless they abide in Christ. As for our election guaranteeing our salvation and being a done deal, look at what Peter said.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 2 Peter 1:10

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by The Harvest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
Question: Didn't the doctrine of eternal security or OSAS originate with Augustine and wasn't he Catholic ??

Can anyone find any writings of the early church fathers or Baptists regarding eternal security ?

even if this WAS true, why would it matter? why would you rather see what uninspired men of the early baptist church wrote about this doctrine when we have the Inspired and Preserved Words of God? </font>[/QUOTE]But you see, people on both sides of this issue have the Inspired and Preserved Words of God!! And if the doctrine of OSAS is based upon Augustine (and none of the early church fathers believed this doctrine), then the doctrine of OSAS or eternal security is in error. It's one thing to discuss the topic. It is quite another if because someone truly believes because they "asked Jesus to come into their heart" when they were a kid and then live like the devil the rest of their life and figure they're okay because OSAS - well, that means people are dying and going to eternal hell because of an error in doctrine. Isn't it important to be as close to the early church in our beliefs and interpretation of Scriptures as possible?

You can bash me asking these questions but that doesn't matter because I have a relationship with Jesus Christ. I am questioning those who once believed they were saved and now have turned away, professing to be agnostics or atheists now, or living a homosexual lifestyle, or living in an adulterous relationship, or hooked on drugs or alcohol and believing all the while they are "saved" because OSAS, and they believed when they were a kid and even got baptized. (Sad to say, I've seen many stories of preacher's kids who are living like this now.)

I believe I'm asking a legitimate question. Isn't the fact that being born again is a matter of relationship? Our relationship with God through Jesus Christ?

And if the doctrine of OSAS is based upon the writings of Augustine and NOT what the early church fathers believed, closer in years to the early New Testament church, well, what about that? It doesn't matter?

I started a thread in the History section if anyone is interested. Believe it or not, there are several people on the Board who know a lot about Baptist and early church history. (I don't happen to be one of them, though, but am trying to learn.)

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000233

And yeh, I was raised by a fundamental Baptist pastor my whole life, who believed wholeheartedly in OSAS and preached eternal security of the believer. I know he wouldn't have steered me wrong. But the fact is, you can be sincere in your beliefs but still be wrong. I'm personally grappling with this issue as others may be, as well.

So I ask, we don't pray for the homosexual's salvation because they professed Christ as a kid? Or we don't pray for the hopeless alcoholic because he received Christ at Camp and got baptized when he was 7 but since his teens has lived in the gutter? My Bible says the drunkard and practicing homosexual will not enter heaven. So how is this reconciled if OSAS??

And saying the profession of faith as a kid didn't take, or wasn't for real - that's a copout. A child's heart is the tenderest of all to reach for Jesus.

 

[HankD]

HankD,

All of the soils/hearts of men except the path the received the seed/word of God. They were converted, born again etc.

The comparison of abiding in the vine and the wheat and the tares is comparing apples to oranges. They don't match. The Lord clearly tells us in John Christians to abide in Him and if we don’t we are cut off. Paul tells us the same thing in the illustration with the olive tree. Jesus also clearly tells us that the tares were never part of His.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

The comparison of abiding in the vine and the wheat and the tares is comparing apples to oranges. They don't match.

IMO they probably do match or are at least similar enough to compare. They are all agricultural seed planting and fruit bearing parables. Look at it this way, The branch which dwells in Christ, the seed which falls in good ground and the wheat bear fruit (this is the fruit of the Spirit imo). The branch not in Christ, the other 3 seeds (devoured, wayside and choked) and the tares perish. The saved versus the lost.

I'll admit this, that the vines which were cut off might have had a certain relationship with the life blood of the vine, the Holy Spirit, in the reproval or conviction of sin.

Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

There are those who seem to come right to the door of salvation being convicted of sin only to fall away with out being saved, never again to return to that place (although I believe it is indicated in Scripture that it is not entirely impossible-with God all things are possible).

Paul tells us the same thing in the illustration with the olive tree.

The olive tree in Romans 11 is the nation of Israel (temporarily set aside-imo), Paul is warning the Romans (gentiles) not to get puffed up because the same can happen to them as Christ also warns certain of the Churches of the Revelation that He will remove them out of their place unless they repent.

God bless you brother.

HankD

[ March 05, 2003, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[LadyEagle]

Didn't mean to kill the thread.

Looks like I did, though.

Don't anyone feel obligated to consider my questions - feel free to carry on.

Happy Eternity

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by SheEagle9/11:
Didn't mean to kill the thread.

Looks like I did, though.

Don't anyone feel obligated to consider my questions - feel free to carry on.

Happy Eternity

I appreciate your open attitude toward this topic. I agree with you notion that we should jettison anything that doesn't square with the Bible.

Don't worry about killing the thread it was dying anyway.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Artimaeus]

Tim, I do consider abiding and dwelling to be works. Any action on my part to accomplish a goal is a work. Believing is not a work because it requires no action on my part. Getting baptized, witnessing, attending church, showing love to my neighbor, and a thousand other things I do are works and if doing these works and/or avoiding sin results in my being qualified for heaven and avoiding hell, (which must be true if avoiding good works and committing sin results in my NOT going to heaven and going to hell), then MY decision to perform works is part of what qualifies me for heaven. I know you are saying that Christ's part is absolutely essential, but, you are also saying that MY part is also absolutely essential to the end reslut of your getting to heaven and avoiding hell.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
Tim, I do consider abiding and dwelling to be works. Any action on my part to accomplish a goal is a work. Believing is not a work because it requires no action on my part. Getting baptized, witnessing, attending church, showing love to my neighbor, and a thousand other things I do are works and if doing these works and/or avoiding sin results in my being qualified for heaven and avoiding hell, (which must be true if avoiding good works and committing sin results in my NOT going to heaven and going to hell), then MY decision to perform works is part of what qualifies me for heaven. I know you are saying that Christ's part is absolutely essential, but, you are also saying that MY part is also absolutely essential to the end reslut of your getting to heaven and avoiding hell.

We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15 As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion. Heb 3:14-15 NIV

Abiding is not working. It is being obedient. The works you do as a Christian flow out of your obedience to Christ. The Holy Spirit prompts you to do it and you obey or disobey. If we do not abide in Him and obey His Spirit that is dwelling in us we harden our hearts in rebellion. Ultimately we become so hardened that we no longer hear His Spirit and we fall away from the faith.


In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[HankD]

Ultimately we become so hardened that we no longer hear His Spirit and we fall away from the faith.

We may fall brother Tim but He will not leave us there or forsake us.

Hebrew 13:5...for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

HankD

 

[mountainrun]

For those who say some of us use the argument that "they were never really saved" the Bible uses the same argumments.

1 Peter 1:7. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

1 John 2:3. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
4. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


There is every scriptural reason to say that those who fail may not have ever been truly saved.
To paint this as a fallatial argument is to be ignorant of scripture.

MR

 

[LadyEagle]

No, it is not being "ignorant of Scripture" as you call it. It is a matter of interpretation. It really isn't necessary to be condescending in this discussion nor is it edifying.

 

[Matthew 16:24]

For those who say some of us use the argument that "they were never really saved" the Bible uses the same argumments.

1 Peter 1:7. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

1 John 2:3. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
4. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


There is every scriptural reason to say that those who fail may not have ever been truly saved.
To paint this as a fallatial argument is to be ignorant of scripture.

MR

Ahh a new twist, I like it!
So then any professing Christian that does not keep the commandments is a liar. So if you say you love Jesus, but yet do not keep his commandments, you are a liar and are not saved. I will agree with you there.
That is pretty much my point, I am just trying to make other people realize their own arguments.
If your argument is, if a person falls away from the faith and goes back to serving the world and not God, "was never saved to begin with", is pretty much the same thing as, I saying that a person can lose his faith and be lost.
In conclusion, to know for sure that you are saved and not a "liar" you must keep the good Lords commandments (obedience)

[ March 09, 2003, 04:37 AM: Message edited by: Matthew 16:24 ]

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Timothy L.:


Abiding is not working. It is being obedient. The works you do as a Christian flow out of your obedience to Christ. The Holy Spirit prompts you to do it and you obey or disobey. If we do not abide in Him and obey His Spirit that is dwelling in us we harden our hearts in rebellion. Ultimately we become so hardened that we no longer hear His Spirit and we fall away from the faith.


In the love of Christ,
Tim

Tim, I can see where you are coming from about thinking that abiding is not work, but, if you think about it, it really is. You are constantly making decisions day after day, week after week, and year after year, perhaps ten of thousands of times you are deciding to either obey or disobey. As Christians that is true of all of us, but, the difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is that when we get to heaven you will be able to say that because you made the right decisions those tens of thousands of times that you have earned your rightful place in heaven. If you say you can't take any credit because it was all through the Holy Spirit then how can I take any blame when I make the wrong decisions. If I must take the blame when I don't dwell and abide then you must take credit when you do. (I don't think you take credit, but how else could it be.) If doing wrong is my fault then doing right is my fault, too.

 

[Tim too]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
Tim, I can see where you are coming from about thinking that abiding is not work, but, if you think about it, it really is. You are constantly making decisions day after day, week after week, and year after year, perhaps ten of thousands of times you are deciding to either obey or disobey. As Christians that is true of all of us, but, the difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is that when we get to heaven you will be able to say that because you made the right decisions those tens of thousands of times that you have earned your rightful place in heaven. If you say you can't take any credit because it was all through the Holy Spirit then how can I take any blame when I make the wrong decisions. If I must take the blame when I don't dwell and abide then you must take credit when you do. (I don't think you take credit, but how else could it be.) If doing wrong is my fault then doing right is my fault, too.

Artimaeus,

We are at a deadlock here. I see abiding as being obedient. We are called as Christians to be obedient, just as Christ was obedient even unto death so are we supposed to be. Look at these verses.


1 Peter 1:13-14
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

Notice that we are to hope to the end, which sounds very similar to Jesus' statement that whoever endures to the end, will be saved. Notice that the grace we will receive from God will be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus. It is not an instant thing that happens when we receive Jesus as our Lord. Finally notice that we are to be obedient, obeying the Holy Spirit inside us.

I have enjoyed debating this issue with you. You have been very Christlike in your arguments. I am stopping with this post. Seven is my favorite number and this is page seven. If you want to ask me any more questions send me a private message.

In the love of Christ,
Tim

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Matthew 16:24:

In conclusion, to know for sure that you are saved and not a "liar" you must keep the good Lords commandments (obedience)

With all due respect Matthew, do you know anyone, including yourself, who does that (100%)? There are many reasons why someone who is saved from Hell would end up in Hell...no, wait a mintue, no, there isn't.

That is the good news of the gospel. I am saved right now, not in the future. So far, no one has answered that question. How can a person be saved right now and end up in hell? If I end up in hell, what was I saved from when I was saved?

 

[Matthew 16:24]

How can a person be saved right now and end up in hell? If I end up in hell, what was I saved from when I was saved?

The person was deceived and thought they had a license to sin and died in their sins.

Never said 100%, although if you look at your life before and after being saved there should be a huge difference in the number of sins. We all slip up at times.
When you sin and there is no repentance, then it is time to worry

[ March 13, 2003, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: Matthew 16:24 ]

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Matthew 16:24:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> How can a person be saved right now and end up in hell? If I end up in hell, what was I saved from when I was saved?

The person was deceived and thought they had a license to sin and died in their sins.

Never said 100%, although if you look at your life before and after being saved there should be a huge difference in the number of sins. We all slip up at times.
When you sin and there is no repentance, then it is time to worry </font>[/QUOTE]Matthew, but, what was I saved from when I was saved? If I end up in hell because I committed 1 or more sins too many, then what was I saved from back when I was saved? It wasn't hell because I ended up there.

 

[Matthew 16:24]

Matthew, but, what was I saved from when I was saved?

You were saved from your sins. Jesus saved you from your sins, not to continue in your sins.

If I end up in hell because I committed 1 or more sins too many, then what was I saved from back when I was saved? It wasn't hell because I ended up there.

See answer 1. Lets not be silly, I never said one sin and that's it, your Hell bound. See my previous posts and Tim's. I know I have answered your questions already and I like to honor Tim's request on stopping on page 7.
I do not know about you but I am pretty blue in the face.
God bless.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Matthew 16:24:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Matthew, but, what was I saved from when I was saved?

You were saved from your sins. Jesus saved you from your sins, not to continue in your sins.

If I end up in hell because I committed 1 or more sins too many, then what was I saved from back when I was saved? It wasn't hell because I ended up there.

See answer 1. Lets not be silly, I never said one sin and that's it, your Hell bound. See my previous posts and Tim's. I know I have answered your questions already and I like to honor Tim's request on stopping on page 7.
I do not know about you but I am pretty blue in the face.
God bless. </font>[/QUOTE]Matthew, I was not being silly, I did not say one sin and you are hell bound. I said, " 1 or more sins TOO MANY[/B. You and Tim were both saying that at SOME point a person wioll commit one sin too many and will be lost again. Ending up in hell has never been a result of how many sins you have committed, it is the result of having a fallen nature. When we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior we become a new creature and our fallen nature is dead to sin and our new nature is accounted to us as righteous before Giod and that is the reason we avoid hell. If it were a matter of being able to avoid sin then I have no hope and neither do you. The concept of a license to sin is an imaginary concept not based in any reality.

BTW, my face doesn't have the slightest hint of any shade of blue, except when I am rooting for my Kentucky Wildcats.

 

[Don]

At the risk of repeating something that's already been said (I'm too lazy to read through all seven pages):

Abiding and obeying is a result of our salvation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works

The one who willingly sins and refuses to acknowledge and repent, after being "saved," is the one who needs to be afraid of God's wrath.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Don:
The one who willingly sins and refuses to acknowledge and repent, after being "saved," is the one who needs to be afraid of God's wrath.

I agree wholeheartedly, except with what that wrath entails. God WILL chasten his children, He WILL bring on the discipline to correct them. A stubborn child CAN continue to be rebellious. When a child of God gets to the point where they WILL NOT repent, as a final action, God takes them home. The words forever, eternal, and everlasting, are not idle words when used to describe the life that God gives me.