Eternal Security

[Darron Steele]

...

I think you answer to my last question got cut off. Do you believe a person has to be baptized to be saved?

I know that question was not to me, but could you clarify how it relates to the subject of this thread?

 

[J. Jump]

but could you clarify how it relates to the subject of this thread?

Just trying to get a more complete picture of where Ken is coming from.

 

[Iamodd4God]

I do not see how any of these beliefs teach that sin is okay. Do they actually say that God will not be displeased by these actions? Not that I can see.

Even Eternal Security believers believe there is lessening of reward or earthly chastisement -- or should if properly instructed. No one believes sin is without consequences or okay.

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) eternal security says this is not the case for the saved. Hence, why I was told I could be in the very act of adultery and still be raptured. This woman, because of the eternal security doctrine does not see that the sin of adultery results in death. Just as Eve believed the serpent that she wouldn't die by disobeying God (Genesis 3:4).

It is not my idea since I learned the Gospel and became a Christian -- not to say that you are not.

Matthew 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus said: "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Isn't the opposite of that truth: "If you don't want to enter life, don't keep the commandments."?

Now, I serve God because I want Him to be pleased by me -- I want to make Him happy. My idea is `I hope God is pleased by this-or-that.'

That is great. I love the WWJD approach, unfortunately not everyone who claims to be following Jesus does what Jesus would do; instead they stick with what they want to do. Not implying that is your case, just stating a fact.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thank you, Heavenly Pilgrim. Hopefully, my life accords with my words.

There is one thing about threads like this that really, really, really bothers me. People come here to this board and to others and bash Eternal Security and those who believe it. The premise: `its believers simply want to live in wanton sin.'

For one thing, that is just plain mean. It is a blanket reviling of character of persons known and unknown. I know personally not even one single Eternal Security Christian who thinks it is okay to sin -- period. The accusations against those Christians are typically both uncharitable and false, and are against servants of Christ.

Second, it says `When fear of loss of salvation is gone, there is no reason to live obediently for Christ.' The implication is: `The only reason I can think of to serve the Lord is to avoid eternal barbecue for myself.' The implication: `I really do not really desire to serve the Lord, but it beats going to eternal barbecue' -- and that makes me sad.

Amen, Brother Darron Steele -- Preach it! :thumbs:

 

[Iamodd4God]

Iamodd4god, Ken, OSAS has been debated on the BB since it was created. There are thousands of posts about it. When the dust settles, no one has changed his/her mind. Arguments for and against OSAS are a HUGE waste of time, time that could be spent in prayer and Bible study. If we'd do that, we'd all come to the same understanding of scripture. As it is, it is hopeless. Well, maybe not hopeless, but a staggering misuse of the time God has given us to worship, praise, and adore Him. :wavey:

As I stated in my original thread, don't expect to change very many (if any) peoples minds. So no, I don't expect to get very many (if any) people to change their minds. However, it is worth the shot. Also I know that this is going against one of the core beliefs of the Baptist; I was a deacon in the Baptist church. I am well aware of the eternal security doctrine. And I can imagine the countless times it has been debated here, but someone new could bring something new to the plate. Perhaps I can point out Scriptures other eternal security opponents never thought of or vice versa.

But it is almost :sleeping_2: time

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[J. Jump]

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) eternal security says this is not the case for the saved.

That is true for some, but not all of us that believe in eternal security .

Jesus said: "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." Isn't the opposite of that truth: "If you don't want to enter life, don't keep the commandments."?

Absolutely true! And there are other verses of Scripture that would give us the same idea.

However the question is what type of "life" are we talking about. The answer according to the gospels is "aionios" life. Aionios is a Greek adjective that means age-lasting. It's talking about life for the coming age not the endless ages.

Specifically it is talking about life for the kingdom, which corresponds directly with the message that Christ was preaching.

He came to give life for His kingdom. His kingdom will last 1,000 years hence aionios (age-lasting) life.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I do not see how any of these beliefs teach that sin is okay. Do they actually say that God will not be displeased by these actions? Not that I can see.

Even Eternal Security believers believe there is lessening of reward or earthly chastisement -- or should if properly instructed. No one believes sin is without consequences or okay.

Sadly, I do know of assemblies that teach that. It's impossible to know how many people believed on the Lord, but just think "Oh, goody! I can still do what I want" and how many think, "Well, may as well try anything" or anything else.

These assemblies correctly teach once saved, always saved, but then fail to teach beyond that.

 

[Cutter]

When I was saved I became a member of the family of God because of the new birth. When I was born I became a member of my family. All of my days I have been a member of my family. I have the family name and I always will, because as I said, I was born into the family. Being born into the family of God makes me a member of his body, his flesh, and his bones as stated in Ephesians 5:30. I have been made one with Christ. To deny the power of God to be able to keep me accepts the premise that Satan is stronger than God. John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
2 Timothy 1:12 for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Apparently some have a problem with their faith and do not believe in the power of God. That is why they have to resort to teaching works based salvation.

"God, I'm sorry, but you probably need my help to keep me out of the fire so I'm going to work extra hard so I can be accounted worthy!"

Do you see how ridiculous that sounds. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags

I've committed myself to Christ my Lord and Saviour the One that paid my sin debt in full and said, "it is finished." Therefore I agree with Bro. Paul, "I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

If you do not have that kind of faith, let me know and I will pray for you. Lord knows you need it.

 

[Darron Steele]

Thanks Pastor Larry!

Now, about this:

Even Eternal Security believers believe there is lessening of reward or earthly chastisement -- or should if properly instructed. No one believes sin is without consequences or okay.

Sadly, I do know of assemblies that teach that. It's impossible to know how many people believed on the Lord, but just think "Oh, goody! I can still do what I want" and how many think, "Well, may as well try anything" or anything else.

These assemblies correctly teach once saved, always saved, but then fail to teach beyond that.

Then I would say that there is an issue with the so-called Christians. Did they resolve to follow Jesus Christ or not? Even if someone taught them such nonsense, that decision should be enough to motivate them from following a life contrary to Christ's teachings.

Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast hym selfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (ESV|BishB|ICB|ESV).

2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is| a new creation. The old is gone; lo, the new has come” (NASB|NBV).

Titus 2:14 says that Jesus Christ died “that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works” (ASV).

There is an issue if the so-called "Christian" has decided to go on living contrary to what is good. In genuine conversion, there should have been a fundamental change.

Did the person really decide to be a follower of Christ? If s/he did, that ought to be seen in their attitude. The attitude ought to be `What Christ taught, I will do, because I follow Him.'

 

[Iamodd4God]

Thank you, Heavenly Pilgrim. Hopefully, my life accords with my words.

There is one thing about threads like this that really, really, really bothers me. People come here to this board and to others and bash Eternal Security and those who believe it. The premise: `its believers simply want to live in wanton sin.'

For one thing, that is just plain mean. It is a blanket reviling of character of persons known and unknown. I know personally not even one single Eternal Security Christian who thinks it is okay to sin -- period. The accusations against those Christians are typically both uncharitable and false, and are against servants of Christ.

Second, it says `When fear of loss of salvation is gone, there is no reason to live obediently for Christ.' The implication is: `The only reason I can think of to serve the Lord is to avoid eternal barbecue for myself.' The implication: `I really do not really desire to serve the Lord, but it beats going to eternal barbecue' -- and that makes me sad.

First of all I haven't bashed anybody; whenever you attack a belief people take it as a personal attack against them. No, a Baptist preacher is not going to stand behind the pulpit and say "sin is okay", and niether is anybody else, because that by itself sounds ungodly. However, the preacher who teaches OSAS isn't teaching the truth about sin.

The wage of sin is death (Romans 6:23); it has always been death from the beginning...

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And it will always be death until the end...

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

...the truth about sin is that it results in death; not just for the non-believers, but the believers too...

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The eternal security lie started in the garden in Eden when the serpent told Eve she would not die. You ask your preacher about these passages of Scripture I have brought up, and ask him if these passages of Scripture applies to Christians, and watch him tell you the same lie the serpent told Eve.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

However the question is what type of "life" are we talking about. The answer according to the gospels is "aionios" life. Aionios is a Greek adjective that means age-lasting. It's talking about life for the coming age not the endless ages.

Specifically it is talking about life for the kingdom, which corresponds directly with the message that Christ was preaching.

He came to give life for His kingdom. His kingdom will last 1,000 years hence aionios (age-lasting) life.

Well there I have to disagree with you...

Matthew 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

...the man asked Jesus about "ETERNAL LIFE".

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Darron Steele]

Thank you, Heavenly Pilgrim. Hopefully, my life accords with my words.

There is one thing about threads like this that really, really, really bothers me. People come here to this board and to others and bash Eternal Security and those who believe it. The premise: `its believers simply want to live in wanton sin.'

For one thing, that is just plain mean. It is a blanket reviling of character of persons known and unknown. I know personally not even one single Eternal Security Christian who thinks it is okay to sin -- period. The accusations against those Christians are typically both uncharitable and false, and are against servants of Christ.

Second, it says `When fear of loss of salvation is gone, there is no reason to live obediently for Christ.' The implication is: `The only reason I can think of to serve the Lord is to avoid eternal barbecue for myself.' The implication: `I really do not really desire to serve the Lord, but it beats going to eternal barbecue' -- and that makes me sad.

To which was replied:

First of all I haven't bashed anybody; whenever you attack a belief people take it as a personal attack against them.

Acknowledged. Okay, then exactly what did you mean by this:

...It is hard to fathom how a person professing to be a believer can systematically reject Scripture and cling on to man made doctrines.
...
Make no mistake, people will continue to reject God’s Word, and they will cling to man’s word.
...
The eternal security teaching condones sin, where the Bible DOES NOT condone any sin....

This is a reviling of Eternal Security Christians. It impugns motives: a desire to believe a bogus teaching which you believe condones sin. The implication: `Eternal Security believers desire to believe a false teaching because it condones sin.'

So yes, you have bashed people.

Had you attacked a belief, you would have simply stuck to why you think the belief is wrong. You did not. You also went after the people who believed it with uncharitable and typically inaccurate accusations.

Even if you are right, there are still wrong ways to be right.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The man asked what he should do (works) to be having life aionian.

If "aionian" means forever and ever, then you earn being born into the family.

The wages of sin is death. It's what you earn for sin.

Do you earn whether you are saved or not?

 

[Iamodd4God]

If you do not have that kind of faith, let me know and I will pray for you. Lord knows you need it.

It's funny how a "saved" person can tell a lie, and their salvation isn't questioned, but boy if a person questions eternal security and then there is no doubt he or she needs saved.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

The man asked what he should do (works) to be having life aionian.

If "aionian" means forever and ever, then you earn being born into the family.

The wages of sin is death. It's what you earn for sin.

Do you earn whether you are saved or not?

First, notice the two questions...

"What must I do to have eternal life?" That was the question the man asked Jesus. In response Jesus said: "If you want eternal life, obey the commandments." (Matthew 19:16-17). Did Jesus lie to this man? No! So if this was true for this man isn't it also true for us?

What Jesus said is supported by Revelation 22:14, which says...

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

...the opposite of that is true. If those who obey the commandments will have the right to the tree of life, then those who do not obey the commandments will not have the right to the tree of life.

Does this mean salvation is earned? Absolutely NOT! We haven't been talking about salvation, we've been talking about what is required to go to heaven. But the first step that cannot be skipped is getting saved, which leads me to the second question.

"What must I do to be saved?" that was the question the jailer asked the apostle Paul. In response the apostle Paul said: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." (Acts 16:30-31). Did the apostle Paul lie to the jailer? No! So if it is true for this man, then it is true for us also.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Iamodd4God]

To which was replied:Acknowledged. Okay, then exactly what did you mean by this:This is a reviling of Eternal Security Christians. It impugns motives: a desire to believe a bogus teaching which you believe condones sin. The implication: `Eternal Security believers desire to believe a false teaching because it condones sin.'

So yes, you have bashed people.

Had you attacked a belief, you would have simply stuck to why you think the belief is wrong. You did not. You also went after the people who believed it with uncharitable and typically inaccurate accusations.

Even if you are right, there are still wrong ways to be right.

"It is hard to fathom how a person professing to be a believer can systematically reject Scripture and cling on to man made doctrines.

Make no mistake, people will continue to reject God’s Word, and they will cling to man’s word."

2Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Did I lie? If all I am doing is stating what the Scripture says, then is it me bashing people or God's Word bashing them?

"The eternal security teaching condones sin, where the Bible DOES NOT condone any sin."

Ask your preacher if these passages of Scripture includes Christians...

Romans 6:23; 1Corinthians 6:9-10; James 1:14-15; Revelation 21:8

Ask him how many lies it takes to make a person a liar, and then quote Revelation 21:8 to him, and watch him dance around it.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

 

[Hope of Glory]

Before we continue, let's make sure we're on the same page: What is "heaven"?

 

[steaver]

Hope and Jump, your salvation of the soul pov failed in Matt 7 and Matt 25 in the "Does God know you" thread. That is why you left the thread.

Your "aionios" argument fails over and over as well. So rather than try to lead Ken through hoops into your beliefs why not just ask him if he is one of Jesus' sheep today?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Cutter]

Originally Posted by Cutter
If you do not have that kind of faith, let me know and I will pray for you. Lord knows you need it.

It's funny how a "saved" person can tell a lie, and their salvation isn't questioned, but boy if a person questions eternal security and then there is no doubt he or she needs saved.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken

A rather weak reply if that's the only part of my post you can find to refute.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darron Steele: Even Eternal Security believers believe there is lessening of reward or earthly chastisement -- or should if properly instructed. No one believes sin is without consequences or okay.

HP: Where does Scripture state that the punishment of sin in the believer or anyone else is loss of rewards? That is clearly not taught in the Word of God. The punishment for sin, if persisted in without repentance, is eternal separation from God. As for those that do despite the grace we have received, “Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

As for the fate of a righteous man that turned from his righteousness refusing to repent, Scripture is exceedingly clear. Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

DS: There is one thing about threads like this that really, really, really bothers me. People come here to this board and to others and bash Eternal Security and those who believe it. The premise: `its believers simply want to live in wanton sin.'

HP: We are pummeled with OSAS on a daily basis, and judged according to it in multitudes of churches. I do not see any ‘bashing’ going on, but rather the hearts of some men and women that recognize the error and deception in such teaching, yet have little to no place to address what they believe is truth. I believe that multitudes are deceived as a result of such teaching. Boards such as this bring freedom of expression, for which I believe not only is truth served, but bonds can be built even between those that disagree. We can be good one for another with this kind of freedom possible. I can tell you personally that those who fail to believe in OSAS in multitudes of Churches, are treated as outcasts and despised, delegated to sitting on their pews in silence, not granted freedom of expression in the least. Certainly, with the freedom that has been graciously afforded all on this list, it may seem as bashing to those that are accustomed to condemning to silence those that believe differently in the assemblies, but I for one do not believe for a minute that any bashing is going on. I see it as a free opportunity of expression and exchange.

As for believers just simply desiring to live in sin, I have to say that that has been my observation in the lives of many over many years. I believe that doctrines such as OSAS coddles sin in the lives of many of those that claim to be believers, and serves as fire insurance for those refusing to repent and turn from their sin. I can think of no greater risk to ones soul than to believe that one can sin and refuse to repent, and yet find heaven as their reward. I am certain there are many such as yourself, that have a true desire to serve the lord and to live for Him, but those that do are not doing so because of the doctrine of OSAS but in spite of it. I thank God for those that are living right, regardless of where or what camp they might be found in. May God increase their numbers!

DS: I know personally not even one single Eternal Security Christian who thinks it is okay to sin -- period. The accusations against those Christians are typically both uncharitable and false, and are against servants of Christ.

HP: Certainly many holding to OSAS do not believe it is right to sin, they just think they are going to get by in spite of it being wrong. They believe that they are still going to make it in regardless what they do. They have accepted the false teaching that the penalty for sin in the believers life is merely loss of rewards. That is a false man-made premise that has no support in scripture. Why would not others come to those on this list and elsewhere and warn them of their impending doom if they do not repent and turn from their sin? How could we love those deceived individuals if in fact we did not warn them?

DS: Second, it says `When fear of loss of salvation is gone, there is no reason to live obediently for Christ.' The implication is: `The only reason I can think of to serve the Lord is to avoid eternal barbecue for myself.' The implication: `I really do not really desire to serve the Lord, but it beats going to eternal barbecue' -- and that makes me sad.

HP: I do not believe for a minute that those not believing in OSAS serve the Lord just to miss a barbeque, but that is certainly motivation to fly right. Scripture states that one of the problems with man is that there is no fear of God in them. I indeed have a holy fear of God, and fear lest I develop a heart of unbelief and depart from the Living God. Fear is not my only motivation to serve God, but is indeed part of it. I love God because he first loved me! Even while a sinner, he died for me! He sought me out when I was lost in sin, reveling in my rebellion and blindly on my way to eternal destruction. I thank God that He was willing to forgive my sin, and to motivate me to proper behavior and provide the daily strength I need to live daily for Him. Let us rejoice this Lord’s day in our wonderful full salvation, a salvation that not only cleanses us from past sin but provides the strength daily to live free from sin as we walk in obedience to His Word.