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Eternal Subordination of the Son. Biblical?

RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
This truth about the Trinity has sometimes been summarized in the phrase “ontological equality but economic subordination,” where the word ontological means “being.”See section D.1, above, where economy was explained to refer to different activities or roles. Another way of expressing this more simply would be to say “equal in being but subordinate in role.” Both parts of this phrase are necessary to a true doctrine of the Trinity: If we do not have ontological equality, not all the persons are fully God. But if we do not have economic subordination,Economic subordination should be carefully distinguished from the error of "subordinationism," which holds that the Son or Holy Spirit are inferior in being to the Father (see section C.2, above, p. 245.) then there is no inherent difference in the way the three persons relate to one another, and consequently we do not have the three distinct persons existing as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for all eternity. For example, if the Son is not eternally subordinate to the Father in role, then the Father is not eternally “Father” and the Son is not eternally “Son.” This would mean that the Trinity has not eternally existed.

This is why the idea of eternal equality in being but subordination in role has been essential to the church’s doctrine of the Trinity since it was first affirmed in the Nicene Creed, which said that the Son was “begotten of the Father before all ages” and that the Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Father and the Son.” Surprisingly, some recent evangelical writings have denied an eternal subordination in role among the members of the Trinity,See, for example, Richard and Catherine Kroeger, in the article "Subordinationism" in EDT: They define subordinationism as "a doctrine which assigns an inferiority of being, status, or role to the Son or the Holy Spirit within the Trinity. Condemned by numerous church councils, this doctrine has continued in one form or another throughout the history of the church" (p. 1058, emphasis mine). When the Kroegers speak of "inferiority of...role" they apparently mean to say that any affirmation of eternal subordination in role belongs to the heresy of subordinationism. But if this is what they are saying, then they are condemning all orthodox Christology from the Nicene Creed onward and thereby condemning a teaching that Charles Hodge says has been a teaching of "the Church universal." Similarly, Millard Erickson, in his Christian Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1983-85), pp. 338 and 698, is willing only to affirm that Christ had a temporary subordination in function for the period of ministry on earth, but nowhere affirms an eternal subordination in role of the Son to the Father or the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. (Similarly, his Concise Dictionary of Christian Theology p. 161.) Robert Letham, in "The Man-Woman Debate: Theological Comment," WTJ 52:1 (Spring 1990), pp. 65-78, sees this tendency in recent evangelical writings as the outworking of an evangelical feminist claim that a subordinate role necessarily implies lesser importance or lesser personhood. Of course, if this is not true among members of the Trinity, then it is not necessarily true between husband and wife either. but it has clearly been part of the church’s doctrine of the Trinity (in Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox expressions), at least since Nicea (a.d. 325).

What then are the differences between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? There is no difference in attributes at all. The only difference between them is the way they relate to each other and to the creation. The unique quality of the Father is the way he relates as Father to the Son and Holy Spirit. The unique quality of the Son is the way he relates as Son. And the unique quality of the Holy Spirit is the way he relates as Spirit. - Wayne Grudem Systematic Theology Full Chapter: Trinity (by Wayne Grudem) | Free Online Biblical Library
The real problem is not solved for feminists (or others) in any case. For that, they would have to demonstrate that the Son was not subordinate to the Father on earth. Our current state and relationships are temporal. When we treat them otherwise, we cause a host of problems. I don’t expect the godless to get this, but we Christians must. We desperately need mature ones in charge.

Ravi Zacharias tells of how he explained something related to this to a reporter who quickly became an inquirer at his lecture. Afterward, she questioned him on racism and the LGBTQ issue. When he spoke of treating both race and gender as sacred, it shed a whole new light on it for her.

Will we accept our God-given roles? Will we become “martyrs” for Christ? I use this term in the biblical sense. That is, will we be witnesses by living according to God’s design, God’s calling?
 

37818

Well-Known Member
A common false teaching held at large by most fellow trinitarians is the idea that the preincarnate Christ in His deity changed to become flesh (John 1:14). Yes His deity did not cease. What changed was how He was "with God." John1:2.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
"My God, My God, why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?" Psalm 22:1

God the Father is Jesus' God, in this Passage, for example, by Office.

Each Member of The Trinity Holds Relationships by Office, while Being God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I like to think of the earthly subordination of Christ as in relationship to military rank.

Christ as a multi-star general came to earth and set it aside becoming a basic trainee in the human race.

A General outranks a Private but is no better/worse a man than a Private.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you agree or disagree with Grudem here?
Disagree with his take on this, as while upon the earth Jesus in His incarnation was subordinate to the father, once glorified back in heaven with his full glory, he went back to full equality with the Father!
I am in agreement with Grudem, as he is in agreement with Nicea, as well as with the Reformers and Puritans. The Son always is the Son. You termed it the eternal subordination of the Son. Another form of that statement is the eternal generation of the Son.
Both Dr Grudem and Dr ware have been taking to task by Reformed believers though for their views, as they have modified it somewhat, to now seeming to be saying that Jesus was functioning in a subordinate role/position only while incarnated here on the earth, not before or after that!
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
He never called Himself to be son of God , but always son of man. He is God. co equal with the Father an Holy Spirit. He never left Heaven while on the earth as a man. 100% God, 100%man.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
He never called Himself to be son of God , but always son of man. He is God. co equal with the Father an Holy Spirit. He never left Heaven while on the earth as a man. 100% God, 100%man.
Peter called Him the Son of God, and the High priest asked Him that, and he agreed that he was!
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
He never referred to Himself as Son of God, just others, He was the physical son of God when He became son of man

Heb 1:5

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
He never referred to Himself as Son of God, just others, He was the physical son of God when He became son of man

Heb 1:5

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Jesus agreed with the High priest that he was the Son of God!
 

Ziggy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"He never called Himself to be son of God , but always son of man."

In Jn 10:36, Jesus rebukes his opponents who charge him with blasphemy "because *I* said *I am* the Son of God."

Seems to answer the point quite clearly.

(So also Jn 9:35-37, if the TR and majority text are followed).
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"He never called Himself to be son of God , but always son of man."

In Jn 10:36, Jesus rebukes his opponents who charge him with blasphemy "because *I* said *I am* the Son of God."

Seems to answer the point quite clearly.

(So also Jn 9:35-37, if the TR and majority text are followed).
Demons had no problem calling Him that!
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
"He never called Himself to be son of God , but always son of man."

In Jn 10:36, Jesus rebukes his opponents who charge him with blasphemy "because *I* said *I am* the Son of God."

Seems to answer the point quite clearly.

(So also Jn 9:35-37, if the TR and majority text are followed).
He was the son of God , as He was human. He was not the Son of God in Heaven before He was human.. He was God
 

tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The demons recognized who He was as God and Human

Mar 1:24

Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Brother Glen:)
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Brother Glen:)
that does not refer to God but the man who has claimed thus or who are his descendants
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Brother Glen:)
that does not refer to God but the man who has claimed thus or who are his descendants
It is in fact the riddle to which John 3:13 (KJV or NKJV) is the answer.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hebrews 13:8. 'Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.'
In the light of this verse, we must declare that the Lord Jesus has always been God the Son. When Psalms 2:7 says, 'I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to Me, "You are My Son, today I have begotten You.."' it is speaking of the Decree of God, made in eternity.

There is therefore an asymmetric relationship between the Persons of the Trinity. Although they are all God, they so not relate to each other in the same way. The Father eternally begets the Son; the Son does not beget the Father. Father and Son send the Spirit; the Spirit does not send the Father.

Yet in the Incarnation, the Lord Jesus willingly became something He had never been: a Servant or slave. 'taking the form of a bondservant, coming in the likeness of men' (Philippians 2:7). Yet, although this is something that happened in time, it is also is also something that was decreed in eternity, in the Everlasting Covenant, so that Christ is 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world' so that Christ might be the Seed of the woman who should crush the serpent's head (Genesis 3:15; c.f. Titus 1:2).

So Christ was always God the Son, but He became the Suffering Servant in order to redeem mankind, though that task had been decreed from all time.
 

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Jesus was not a son until He became a man. The Father was not a Father to God who became a man until Jesus became a man.
God who became a son of man was not a son in Heaven. He was in Heaven while as a man on earth.
 
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