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ethics question
- Thread starter dfi
- Start date
dfi,
I don't think its as common a practice as you think. I honestly believe that the majority of missionaries going to "closed" countries are actually performing the jobs that they declare on their VISA.
When I mentioned going in as a teacher, I meant that those missionaries actually start schools, or teach in a school. They are doing what their VISA says they will do.
On the other hand, someone said that we oughtn't go to those countries with the intent of spreading the gospel because it would violate their laws? Isn't that going against what the Bible says when the apostles declared "we ought to obey God rather than men" over this exact issue?
Yes, we should not lie. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't use our vocational skills in order to open a door for us to enter a country and be a witness where others might not be able to go.
I believe this is also what medical missions is intended to do.
I don't think its as common a practice as you think. I honestly believe that the majority of missionaries going to "closed" countries are actually performing the jobs that they declare on their VISA.
When I mentioned going in as a teacher, I meant that those missionaries actually start schools, or teach in a school. They are doing what their VISA says they will do.
On the other hand, someone said that we oughtn't go to those countries with the intent of spreading the gospel because it would violate their laws? Isn't that going against what the Bible says when the apostles declared "we ought to obey God rather than men" over this exact issue?
Yes, we should not lie. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't use our vocational skills in order to open a door for us to enter a country and be a witness where others might not be able to go.
I believe this is also what medical missions is intended to do.
For missionaries that can't go to a closed country, they can go to surrounding countries and minister to people coming and going to the closed country therefore being ethical.
There are many Chinese areas in our own country that they could enter ethically
Some business schools in the USA are now offering Ethics courses. They should have been for the last 40 years, but at least they see the problem.
C4K doesn't need my confirmation, but he is right on.
My wife works in a "government" agency that requires strict honesty from the public but sat in a meeting where one of the people had gotten a red light camera ticket, the picture wasn't clear of the driver - her - so she was going to court to tell the judge it wasn't her to get out of the ticket. Several in the meeting claim to be Christian, but were encouraging the woman to go to court and lie to save a hundred bucks.
The church should be holding ethics classes!
There are many Chinese areas in our own country that they could enter ethically
Some business schools in the USA are now offering Ethics courses. They should have been for the last 40 years, but at least they see the problem.
C4K doesn't need my confirmation, but he is right on.
My wife works in a "government" agency that requires strict honesty from the public but sat in a meeting where one of the people had gotten a red light camera ticket, the picture wasn't clear of the driver - her - so she was going to court to tell the judge it wasn't her to get out of the ticket. Several in the meeting claim to be Christian, but were encouraging the woman to go to court and lie to save a hundred bucks.
The church should be holding ethics classes!
Doesn't it tell you something that they're now recognizing a need to teach ethics courses?
The church already holds ethics courses; it's called "preaching."
I don't think that if the country is closed, we shouldn't go to it; I also don't think we should be deceitful about our motives. There's a group that advocates such methods; one or two of their members post on the Baptist Board.
The church already holds ethics courses; it's called "preaching."
I don't think that if the country is closed, we shouldn't go to it; I also don't think we should be deceitful about our motives. There's a group that advocates such methods; one or two of their members post on the Baptist Board.
There are missionaries working in what is known as the last frontiers at this moment. Many are known to us only by a first name...or just an initial...or no name. This is because to reveal their identity would mean instant arrest, torture...death...
These beautiful people risk their lives daily to bring the Gospel message...
instead of debating the "ethics" of such a thing...
I ask prayers for them. They ask we pray for good paths, clean water, good weather, Bibles and blankets...
simple things to ask for...won't you please pray for them?
Y'Israel
These beautiful people risk their lives daily to bring the Gospel message...
instead of debating the "ethics" of such a thing...
I ask prayers for them. They ask we pray for good paths, clean water, good weather, Bibles and blankets...
simple things to ask for...won't you please pray for them?
Y'Israel
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
If they were dishonest in getting on the field, can we truly ask God to honour their dishonesty?
Brother Ian
Active Member
It is a good question. When we travel to Romania to do mission work, we tell the officials our purpose is for pleasure. It is not a lie as we do get tremendous pleasure from talking about Christ.
I have relatives that minister in Central Asia. They are prohibited by the mission board from stating the exact country where they are. They are both nurses and entered the country to perform medical duties. A more accurate reason for being here is that they want to share Jesus with the people there. I don't think that's at all unethical. They do conduct extensive medical treatment.
I think the line is crossed if someone is asked the question of why they are in a country and they lie. For example, if I say I am in Romania to build furniture and have no intention of doing so, that would cross the line.
There are many ways to answer the question about why you are in a particular place without lying.
I have relatives that minister in Central Asia. They are prohibited by the mission board from stating the exact country where they are. They are both nurses and entered the country to perform medical duties. A more accurate reason for being here is that they want to share Jesus with the people there. I don't think that's at all unethical. They do conduct extensive medical treatment.
I think the line is crossed if someone is asked the question of why they are in a country and they lie. For example, if I say I am in Romania to build furniture and have no intention of doing so, that would cross the line.
There are many ways to answer the question about why you are in a particular place without lying.
I've just checked in on this one, but it is a fascinating discussion. C4K has pretty much stated my position on the matter. As old Dr. Bob Sr. used to say, "It is never right to do wrong in order to get a chance to do right." Here are some observations from my experience.
First of all, as I recall, Brother Andrew in his book God's Smuggler said that he never had to lie, he simply asked the Lord to close the eyes of the border guards when he smuggled Bibles into Communist countries. I have talked to other Bible smugglers who say the same thing. They have actually had customs officials look right at the Bibles, but not see them. God is able to answer prayer and take care of His servants without deceit.
Secondly, I don't remember the Apostle Paul hiding anything, in spite of the persecution. Someone said that the first thing Paul checked out when he entered a town was the accomations at the local jail!
I talked last year on furlough to someone who had been working in China. They told me that there are many working there now in the open doing evangelism and planting churches with the full knowledge of the officials. Though outwardly Communist, the country has changed so much towards capitalism that some freedom is being allowed, though house churches are still persecuted to a degree. On the other hand, this missionary told me of others who tried to hide everything, and were not being blessed.
Thirdly, concerning visas, they should be open and aboveboard. Here in Japan, though we came under a "religious activities" (missionary) visa, if I were to take an official part-time job in the schools teaching English, I would be in big trouble if I did not get my visa changed. "The powers that be are ordained of God."
First of all, as I recall, Brother Andrew in his book God's Smuggler said that he never had to lie, he simply asked the Lord to close the eyes of the border guards when he smuggled Bibles into Communist countries. I have talked to other Bible smugglers who say the same thing. They have actually had customs officials look right at the Bibles, but not see them. God is able to answer prayer and take care of His servants without deceit.
Secondly, I don't remember the Apostle Paul hiding anything, in spite of the persecution. Someone said that the first thing Paul checked out when he entered a town was the accomations at the local jail!
I talked last year on furlough to someone who had been working in China. They told me that there are many working there now in the open doing evangelism and planting churches with the full knowledge of the officials. Though outwardly Communist, the country has changed so much towards capitalism that some freedom is being allowed, though house churches are still persecuted to a degree. On the other hand, this missionary told me of others who tried to hide everything, and were not being blessed.
Thirdly, concerning visas, they should be open and aboveboard. Here in Japan, though we came under a "religious activities" (missionary) visa, if I were to take an official part-time job in the schools teaching English, I would be in big trouble if I did not get my visa changed. "The powers that be are ordained of God."
Hope of Glory
New Member
I have friends in closed countries. Even though they decided to set up their businesses for the reason of planting a church or being missionaries, neither is a lie.
They told their sending church that their main purpose is to be a missionary, and to do that, I am going to start a business doing XXX.
On their visa application, they stated that they were going to start a business doing XXX. Sometimes those countries require that they hire so many non-Christians, or other qualifications, but that is primarily what they are doing in that country, even if that is not primarily the reason they are doing it. (And some of them have made a tidy little profit on their business as well.)
They told their sending church that their main purpose is to be a missionary, and to do that, I am going to start a business doing XXX.
On their visa application, they stated that they were going to start a business doing XXX. Sometimes those countries require that they hire so many non-Christians, or other qualifications, but that is primarily what they are doing in that country, even if that is not primarily the reason they are doing it. (And some of them have made a tidy little profit on their business as well.)
dfi
Could you clarify your question?
I understand situational ethics. But, I do not believe that what we call 'situational ethics' are warranted. But, I do believe that there are times when we, believers, will make extreme sacrifices for the Gospel.
Unfortunately, the implication I understood from the OP is that we should lie and cheat in order to spread the Gospel.
If I cannot tell a country's immigration authorities that I am a Christian coming to their country to perform the work I declare on my visa, then something is wrong with my integrity.
If I compromise my integrity on a daily basis, am I a servant of the Lord.
Could you clarify your question?
I understand situational ethics. But, I do not believe that what we call 'situational ethics' are warranted. But, I do believe that there are times when we, believers, will make extreme sacrifices for the Gospel.
Unfortunately, the implication I understood from the OP is that we should lie and cheat in order to spread the Gospel.
If I cannot tell a country's immigration authorities that I am a Christian coming to their country to perform the work I declare on my visa, then something is wrong with my integrity.
If I compromise my integrity on a daily basis, am I a servant of the Lord.
Baptist Bob.1
New Member
Is it being honest to accept a position at a church or school to which you have fundamental differences on a doctrine such as seperartion, music or baptism? Is it honest to your ministry to offer that position when you know that person holds those differences?
Good point, Baptist Bob.1. And if someone lies in order to get to a mission field where I am serving, I would not want to work with him.
When the time is right, God will make a way into any country (including Saudi Arabia for instance).
Acts 16
6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
Acts 16
6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
Baptist Bob.1
New Member
My point is this, if you knew that a Baptist Pastor had hired a person to work at their ministry who did not adhere to one of the Baptist Confessions of Faith like the Philedelphia Confession would that be disappointing.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
We are no longer in Ireland as "missionaries." We are here on the basis of having an "Irish born child." I do not hide the fact that I am Baptist pastor. The immigration official in our town knows us well and I have witnessed to her. She is a friend of the family.
She suggested we change our status so that we only have to renew our visas every five years instead of every year.
She suggested we change our status so that we only have to renew our visas every five years instead of every year.
Baptist Bob,
in order to be hired by a Baptist pastor they do not have to adhere to ANY "confession" of faith except the Bible. The only exception I would see for that is if the church's particular constitution mandates adherence to a particular confession in order for a person to be hired.
in order to be hired by a Baptist pastor they do not have to adhere to ANY "confession" of faith except the Bible. The only exception I would see for that is if the church's particular constitution mandates adherence to a particular confession in order for a person to be hired.