Eucharistic Divinity

[Cathode]

It was for this reason that even the bronze serpent made in Moses day was destroyed. It was a legitimate and important relic and reminder - but had become an object of worship. I believe that even if all your tortured explanations of how the bread and wine becomes Christ but the "accident" of the items do not and so on were true, your adoration of the host is still misplaced. You still have Jesus himself, accessible through prayer and with the help of the Holy Spirit. (Your own prayer - with no intermediary needed.) Anything more, even as an aid in worship is dangerous and wrong. But still I know too many Catholics that I would just want to give caution - not curse them as your Schoolmen did us.

Not tortured explanations, but laboured certainly.

But these explanations have been given for a long time.

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

“[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood…” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).

These are the Apostolic successors and early Fathers of Catholicism giving the same explanations as I have.

The Fathers of Protestantism came along 1500 years later with there own human traditions denying the words of Christ in scripture and ignoring the early Fathers.

Even Ignatius disciple of John the Apostle and Apostolically appointed bishop of Antioch is ignored.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

This is Ignatius against the the docetist gnostics.

It’s not Ignatius gone wrong on doctrine, he learned directly from the Apostles and author of John.

 

[DaveXR650]

@Cathode. We could go on and on. You come up with "cold soviet puritan excess" which isn't even a thing and the never smiling Puritan stereotype, which never was a thing and then I guess I am supposed to counter by pointing out the Catholic way of insisting on the most ornate, expensive structure in hundreds of poverty stricken towns and the tendency to suck wealth from the town to the church - which was a big part of Luther's objections in the first place - but why do that? I agree with many of your objections to modern evangelical worship services but the Catholics were doing that with "folk masses" back in the '70s'. I went to some in college. After some guitar led singing the priest came out in a bright yellow smock that said "New Life" on it and gave a 10 minute sermonette that my Catholic friend said was a "homily". You're behind the times, man.
I actually liked it, which is why I remember it so many years later.

For us, the readings aren’t worship or the sermon by the pastor. These take centre stage in Protestant Churches.

In Catholic Churches Jesus takes centre stage in the Holy Eucharist, the total focus of Latria Adoration.

That probably sums it up. We feel that the highest honor we can give God, when not actually away from church living the life and serving Him, is to study His word, accompanied by some singing and corporate prayer and observing the Lord's supper in the way we were actually told to do so. And we have freedom in areas not specifically proscribed in scripture. But we see no evidence from scripture or from ECF's of an ornate ceremony involving parading around a piece of bread in an ornate setting, holding it up high and performing complicated rituals as being legitimate worship. We believe we are warned against such things in both Old and New Testament. You nailed it.

 

[DaveXR650]

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

A perfect example. This clearly is explaining the ceremony of the Lord's Supper. You have to believe that much in order to do the ceremony. It does not say to parade the bread around like an idol, while trying to build up emotion regarding the symbol. You need to either put up where the earliest church fathers did this and show in scripture where the apostles did likewise. You would also do well to show another Catholic website that allows Baptists to come on and attack your faith like you are doing on this Baptist website to us.

 

[DaveXR650]

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

Did you see who this was to?

This is Ignatius against the the docetist gnostics.

Not the Baptists. And last time I checked Baptist churches were not abstaining from prayer, unless you mean to saints or statues, and they still practiced the Lord's Supper, but properly, which is to proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

I like it when you do this occasionally @Cathode. Your posts always have the same pattern of starting out seemingly conciliatory, maybe with just a small jab at some evangelical excess in passing, but hey, are we not all fellow believers. But if you are opposed, and once the less informed who don't see what you are like sign off, you show your true colors, which are a perfect illustration of the reality of just how far off you guys really are and how no coming together or reconciliation will ever be possible unless you first cancel the Papacy, the priesthood, and your idolatry. So that about sums up the reality. We can work together for common philosophical and political goals, maybe, but we really are far apart.

 

[Cathode]

A perfect example. This clearly is explaining the ceremony of the Lord's Supper. You have to believe that much in order to do the ceremony. It does not say to parade the bread around like an idol, while trying to build up emotion regarding the symbol. You need to either put up where the earliest church fathers did this and show in scripture where the apostles did likewise. You would also do well to show another Catholic website that allows Baptists to come on and attack your faith like you are doing on this Baptist website to us.

The Eucharist is not bread, it is Jesus Himself that we worship. There is a tonnage of quotes of the ancient Fathers referencing scripture about the Eucharist, through the dark ages and to the 1500s. It was a universal Christian belief everywhere.

He did not say, ‘This is the symbol of My Body, and this, of My Blood,’ but, what is set before us, but that it is transformed by means of the Eucharistic action into Flesh and Blood.” Theodore of Mopsuestia, Commentary on Matthew 26:26 (ante A.D. 428).

This the other denominations section where you will get to hear other denominations perspectives on scripture and church history etc.
It’s good to get other perspectives, Catholic sites are jammed with people from all backgrounds, they tend to get too busy so haven’t been on one in a very long time.

It’s just another perspective, I owe it to people to give my honest perspective. You are looking at it.

From my perspective, Protestant services are missing “ Worship “ as I understand it. There is no Latria, no Adoration from what I see.

It’s not an attack people, it’s an observation from my perspective.

I’m sorry if this offended you, I’m simply giving you my perspective.

 

[Cathode]

Did you see who this was to?

Not the Baptists. And last time I checked Baptist churches were not abstaining from prayer, unless you mean to saints or statues, and they still practiced the Lord's Supper, but properly, which is to proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

I like it when you do this occasionally @Cathode. Your posts always have the same pattern of starting out seemingly conciliatory, maybe with just a small jab at some evangelical excess in passing, but hey, are we not all fellow believers. But if you are opposed, and once the less informed who don't see what you are like sign off, you show your true colors, which are a perfect illustration of the reality of just how far off you guys really are and how no coming together or reconciliation will ever be possible unless you first cancel the Papacy, the priesthood, and your idolatry. So that about sums up the reality. We can work together for common philosophical and political goals, maybe, but we really are far apart.

Ignatius believed the Eucharist is Jesus flesh, so that’s not the Eucharist you believe in, but abstain from isn’t it?

People have told me repeatedly that they don’t believe Jesus flesh is real food and blood is real drink.

People have the right to different perspectives Dave. We aren’t in North Korea.

 

[Cathode]

A perfect example. This clearly is explaining the ceremony of the Lord's Supper. You have to believe that much in order to do the ceremony. It does not say to parade the bread around like an idol, while trying to build up emotion regarding the symbol. You need to either put up where the earliest church fathers did this and show in scripture where the apostles did likewise. You would also do well to show another Catholic website that allows Baptists to come on and attack your faith like you are doing on this Baptist website to us.

“ No one eats the flesh of Christ without first Adoring it “ Augustine

Adoration is the “ Worship “ Latria of Jesus Himself.

The bread that Jesus gives is His flesh for the Life of the world.

Whoever eats this bread will live forever.

Jesus Himself is the bread of life.

Jesus flesh and blood has the force of resurrection and eternal life.

“ He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the Last day “

The Eucharist is Jesus come us as the new manna from heaven.

 

[DaveXR650]

Ignatius believed the Eucharist is Jesus flesh, so that’s not the Eucharist you believe in, but abstain from isn’t it?

Do you have descriptions of Ignatius or any other EARLY church father (before Constantine) who describes the ceremony as you do it nowadays? I'm truly just asking as I don't know. I don't know what gives you the right to assume you understand that Ignatius meant that the Eucharist was Jesus flesh in any other capacity than as part of the proclamation of Jesus death in the partaking of the Lord's Supper, either. That's why I want you to show me where they carried the bread around as an object of worship. I am just trying to trace back to where this error started.

I question this because Ignatius said "and from prayer", which leads me to believe that they were not doing anything, not just that he was defending transubstantiation.

 

[DaveXR650]

“ No one eats the flesh of Christ without first Adoring it “ Augustine

I love to read Augustine but please don't drag him in. He is the same guy who postponed his own baptism because he had a lot of sinning he needed to do first. He is accused or honored as the father of Calvinism, and of later returning to Manicheanism. Just don't go there.

 

[Cathode]

Do you have descriptions of Ignatius or any other EARLY church father (before Constantine) who describes the ceremony as you do it nowadays? I'm truly just asking as I don't know. I don't know what gives you the right to assume you understand that Ignatius meant that the Eucharist was Jesus flesh in any other capacity than as part of the proclamation of Jesus death in the partaking of the Lord's Supper, either. That's why I want you to show me where they carried the bread around as an object of worship. I am just trying to trace back to where this error started.

I question this because Ignatius said "and from prayer", which leads me to believe that they were not doing anything, not just that he was defending transubstantiation.

First off, this is Catholic history which only comes down to us through the Catholic Church patrimony.
This isn’t Baptist history, these are not the fathers of the Baptist traditions. Those were very different men in the 1500-1600s.
Baptists didn’t exist in Ignatius’ time.

And you ask me

I don't know. I don't know what gives you the right to assume you understand that Ignatius meant that the Eucharist was Jesus flesh

As a Catholic commenting on Catholic history and Catholic saints and martyrs, I might ask you what gives you the right to interpret the Catholic Fathers Protestantism long disavowed.

 

[Cathode]

I love to read Augustine but please don't drag him in. He is the same guy who postponed his own baptism because he had a lot of sinning he needed to do first. He is accused or honored as the father of Calvinism, and of later returning to Manicheanism. Just don't go there.

Sure, he was a sinner before he converted, so is everyone else.
Calvin was the father of Calvinism, he privately interpreted Augustine as he did with the scriptures, falsely.
Augustine wrote against Mani if you recall.

 

[DaveXR650]

As a Catholic commenting on Catholic history and Catholic saints and martyrs, I might ask you what gives you the right to interpret the Catholic Fathers Protestantism long disavowed.

What gives you the right to claim them as "Catholic" fathers if you can't show they originally had this system of bread worship and pageantry set up by order of the apostles, either from scripture or the writings of the ECF's. The development of the Papacy, priesthood, and the rituals, and so on developed over time, as did the authority to put it on others. It is not necessary to have "Baptists" as we know them (I personally believe they can be traced to the Reformation), but it is better to show that the church fathers you claim did not do what you claim - instead it was developed much later.

The early church fathers are not rejected by Baptists. What we do though is compare their writings to scripture and evaluate them like we do any other theologians. They had their own set of controversies (the concept of the Trinity was not fully developed) and they had their own culture and varying access to scripture. I respect them but anyone who reads them will find error and strange beliefs, along with their greatness.

 

[DaveXR650]

Sure, he was a sinner before he converted, so is everyone else.
Calvin was the father of Calvinism, he privately interpreted Augustine as he did with the scriptures, falsely.
Augustine wrote against Mani if you recall.

Yes and recently there is some controversy as to whether he embraced elements of it again toward the end of his life. (See Wilson). What I was referring to was not that he was like everyone else as a sinner but that his view was that he should go ahead and get some sinning out of his system and then get baptized at a later date thus decreasing the chance that he would commit a mortal sin not covered by baptism. Is that what you teach young Catholics today?

 

[Cathode]

Do you have descriptions of Ignatius or any other EARLY church father (before Constantine) who describes the ceremony as you do it nowadays? I'm truly just asking as I don't know. I don't know what gives you the right to assume you understand that Ignatius meant that the Eucharist was Jesus flesh in any other capacity than as part of the proclamation of Jesus death in the partaking of the Lord's Supper, either. That's why I want you to show me where they carried the bread around as an object of worship. I am just trying to trace back to where this error started.

Justin Martyr 155 ad in his first Apology chapter 65 gives the general form of the Divine Liturgy we practice today at Mass.

The Church was in hiding for 300 years, so you won’t find public exposition where people were being killed for the Catholic Faith.

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

Catholics have their beliefs today handed down through these Fathers, and the interpretations of the scriptures taught to them by the Apostles.

They held to the Apostles understanding of scripture, that is why they are more authoritative than human interpretations of scripture 1500 years later.

 

[Cathode]

Catholics received their understanding and doctrine through the Fathers who learned from the apostles. These are the Catholic fathers of our faith handed down from the Apostles.

“And this food is called among us Eucharistia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

—First Apology, 66 155 AD

Note The Eucharist and baptismal regeneration.

 

[DaveXR650]

For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

For sure not as common bread and common drink to we receive these. But I don't take it that his purpose here is to convince us that the bread and blood itself is literally changed into Jesus and is to be worshipped as such - but that we should be thinking as we do this that Jesus himself was indeed made flesh and blood - for our salvation. That is the teaching that we commemorate and show forth until he returns. We were not given a great commission to go and convince everyone to worship a piece of bread encased in a decorative setting, yet that seems to be what you are completely fixated upon.
I am glad you included the above:

“And this food is called among us Eucharistia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.

Truly regenerated believers who are living as Christ enjoined are invited to partake. The washing that is for the remission of sins is important and shown forth by the bread and wine which represent the broken body and shed blood for the remission of sins. The focus must not shift from the message being remembered to one of physically eating and drinking. His use of "nourishing" seems to have been lost by your belief that we are talking about food. Our souls are indeed nourished by remembering and proclaiming his death, which scripture says specifically that that is what we are proclaiming.

 

[Cathode]

For sure not as common bread and common drink to we receive these. But I don't take it that his purpose here is to convince us that the bread and blood itself is literally changed into Jesus and is to be worshipped as such - but that we should be thinking as we do this that Jesus himself was indeed made flesh and blood - for our salvation. That is the teaching that we commemorate and show forth until he returns. We were not given a great commission to go and convince everyone to worship a piece of bread encased in a decorative setting, yet that seems to be what you are completely fixated upon.
I am glad you included the above:

Truly regenerated believers who are living as Christ enjoined are invited to partake. The washing that is for the remission of sins is important and shown forth by the bread and wine which represent the broken body and shed blood for the remission of sins. The focus must not shift from the message being remembered to one of physically eating and drinking. His use of "nourishing" seems to have been lost by your belief that we are talking about food. Our souls are indeed nourished by remembering and proclaiming his death, which scripture says specifically that that is what we are proclaiming.

If I am reading Baptist history, I’ll read it with a Baptist lense.
You are trying to read Catholic history with a Baptist lense.

These Fathers are part of Catholic Apostolic Tradition, we believe the doctrines that Fathers like Justin handed down.

Our understanding of the Eucharist comes down from people like Ignatius and Justin Martyr, that is why they are Catholic Fathers.

 

[DaveXR650]

If I am reading Baptist history, I’ll read it with a Baptist lense.
You are trying to read Catholic history with a Baptist lense.

No. Unfortunately you don't. You will read everything through a Catholic lense just as I indeed will read everything through a Baptist lense. We all bring our own background and teaching, much of which is picked up unconsciously.

we believe the doctrines that Fathers like Justin handed down.

"Of course you do", with apologies to James Bond.

 

[Cathode]

No. Unfortunately you don't. You will read everything through a Catholic lense just as I indeed will read everything through a Baptist lense. We all bring our own background and teaching, much of which is picked up unconsciously.

"Of course you do", with apologies to James Bond.

These Fathers are Catholic patrimony, these are reason we believe what we believe.
As with the Scriptures all the Fathers writings come down to us through the Catholic Church.

 

[Cathode]

No. Unfortunately you don't. You will read everything through a Catholic lense just as I indeed will read everything through a Baptist lense. We all bring our own background and teaching, much of which is picked up unconsciously.

I should read Catholic history with a Catholic lense.
Their understanding of the Eucharist and mine are the same.
It is the flesh and blood of Christ.
The Mass today is modeled the same as Justin’s, that is where our model came from.

Baptism to Justin was water baptism, this was regeneration to him.

Catholic belief not Baptist.