Eureka! An Attempt at Understanding the End Times Prophecies

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for the link. I had considered that possibility. There are problems with making it Jerusalem. Namely that as of the Roman Empire, Jerusalem fails to fulfill many of the prophecies about the Harlot and it fails to fulfill them afterwards. While Rome fulfills all the prophecies about the Harlot except being destroyed by the Beast. Thus, history gives me strong evidence it's Rome.

These predictions about the Harlot fail to be true if it is Jerusalem. Although, I am all ears for your defense of your position. (All verses are in Revelation 17)

1. The kings of the earth and those who dwell on the earth commit immoral acts with this city (17:2).
2. The city is very wealthy, honored, and full of the choicest goods (17:4)
3. The city is a great persecutor and enemy of the saints having murdered so many (17:6)
4. The kingdom represented by the fourth beast of Daniel carries this city (17:7)
5. The city is the mother of other immoral cities and the mother of the abominations of the earth (17:5)
6. This city sits upon many peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues (17:15)
7. This city will reign over the kings of the earth (17:18)

Sir, I look forward to your reply. I would love to compare notes.

There is spiritual Babylon of the last days, and the economic one!

 

[Yeshua1]

Oh, I'm sorry. Well let's take a look at Revelation 12. I have come to firm conclusions about the first 5 verses of that chapter due to the teachings of my senior pastor.

Revelation 12:1-13 NASB
12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.


OK let's start with the easy stuff and build from there. We will start with the child in verse 5.

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

OK, this is easy. Who in all the bible will rule all the nations with a rod of iron? Jesus Christ. In fact I don't have to ask that question. For, in Revelation 19:15 we get this description of Jesus in the Book of Revelation,

15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

So, Jesus Christ is the one Who will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

The next question is did Jesus Christ get caught upwards to God and His throne? The answer is yes, Jesus Christ rules at the right hand of the Most High after ascending to heaven in the Book of Acts 1. During his speech in Acts 7 (Verses 54-60) the martyr Stephen even claims to see Christ standing at God's right hand.

That figured out let's work back before working forward. Let's look at the Dragon. We don't have to even guess, the Book of Revelation gives who the dragon is in Revelation 12:9

9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

This helps make sense of the third of the stars thrown down from heaven. It would appear that these are the angels that Satan tempted from God. I am not 100% though, but that appears the most straightforward explanation. Did Satan try to kill Jesus when He was born? Yes! Herod the Great has to be tricked by the Wise Men, who go straight home from Bethlehem after being warned in a dream. Joseph the adopted father of Jesus also received a dream to flee to Egypt to protect Jesus. Even then, Herod butchers the babies in Bethlehem when he learns he was tricked by the Wise Men. All of this happens in Matthew 2.

So the child is Jesus Christ, the time period of Revelation 12 to this point is the past. Although, I must say there is still a lot left to the chapter that I am trying to understand. The Dragon is Satan. Who could the Woman be? There are only two plausible options. Mary the mother Jesus, but looking at the rest of Revelation 12 that makes little sense. Or, it could be the people of Israel. This is helped by the first part about the moon, sun, and stars. Because, in Genesis 37:9-11 we find our answer. Joseph has a dream that comes true.

9 Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” 10 He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?” 11 His brothers were jealous of him, but his father kept the saying in mind.

So, the sun moon and 11 stars bow down to Joseph. The context of Jacob's response gives away that the moon and sun are Jacob and his half-mother Leah. The stars are Joseph's brothers, who will bow to him in Egypt in the future. As one of the sons of Israel, Joseph could be considered another star.

When all of this combines, it appears that the woman is the nation of Israel. Particularly, when Jesus Christ is born into this world. However, more happens to the woman after verse 5, so Israel's story continues on in this prophecy.

Isreal gave birth to Jesus , not the Church!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Isreal gave birth to Jesus , not the Church!

That's what I said. The child is Jesus Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's what I said. The child is Jesus Christ.

Ok, just wanted do make sure did not see her as being Mary, as the Church of Rome does!

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Ok, just wanted do make sure did not see her as being Mary, as the Church of Rome does!

The Woman is Israel. Please read my post, I spent time and hard work on it.

 

[37818]

Have you considered the six kings, five fallen, one reigning are the emperor's of the Roman Empire? I just noticed in my research that Nero is the sixth Roman dictator of the line of Julius Caesar.

List of Roman emperors - Wikipedia

I say this because Daniel's vision in Daniel 7 covers the empires of Babylon, Persia, and Alexander with separate beasts. The fourth beast also comes after Alexander's empire and has aspects of the three previous empires in it through Revelation 13:2. The fourth beast is figured to be the Roman Empire since it is the next one to rule the Medierranean after Alexanders Empire. Also Revelation 17:10 says the heads are kings, not kingdoms, which is of special note.

I will add that the seventh head that rules a little while and is the beast may refer to the Man of Lawlessness.

Egypt and assyria are before Babylon. the identity of Roman "King" would, I would think, give us a date for the writing of the Revelation. Beyond that, it is yet future. How? At least from the writing of that book. I believe it to be future to us.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Egypt and assyria are before Babylon. the identity of Roman "King" would, I would think, give us a date for the writing of the Revelation. Beyond that, it is yet future. How? At least from the writing of that book. I believe it to be future to us.

The seventh head appears future, I agree. The fact it is the Beast and going to his destruction leads me to that. Although, I am not 100%. I must find a date for the apostle John on Patmos. Thank you for steering me in that direction. I will also look for clues to who the 7th head may be in the text.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Egypt and assyria are before Babylon. the identity of Roman "King" would, I would think, give us a date for the writing of the Revelation. Beyond that, it is yet future. How? At least from the writing of that book. I believe it to be future to us.

My hunch appears wrong, John writes Revelation under Domitian, not Nero

When was the book of Revelation written by the apostle John? | NeverThirsty

I must return to your idea. Why do you feel so certain it is those five empires? I see that much depends on the quote requiring wisdom,

8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

 

[asterisktom]

Thank you for the link. I had considered that possibility. There are problems with making it Jerusalem. Namely that as of the Roman Empire, Jerusalem fails to fulfill many of the prophecies about the Harlot and it fails to fulfill them afterwards. While Rome fulfills all the prophecies about the Harlot except being destroyed by the Beast. Thus, history gives me strong evidence it's Rome.

These predictions about the Harlot fail to be true if it is Jerusalem. Although, I am all ears for your defense of your position. (All verses are in Revelation 17)

1. The kings of the earth and those who dwell on the earth commit immoral acts with this city (17:2).
2. The city is very wealthy, honored, and full of the choicest goods (17:4)
3. The city is a great persecutor and enemy of the saints having murdered so many (17:6)
4. The kingdom represented by the fourth beast of Daniel carries this city (17:7)
5. The city is the mother of other immoral cities and the mother of the abominations of the earth (17:5)
6. This city sits upon many peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues (17:15)
7. This city will reign over the kings of the earth (17:18)

Sir, I look forward to your reply. I would love to compare notes.

Thank you for the detailed response. Later this morning I will get into this more specifically. But for starters I would suggest we consider the necessary background of chapter 15. This all relates to the "Song of Moses". And that relates directly to Israel, not Rome.

But I will get more into this later.

I appreciate that you numbered your points. It will be easier to answer them the same way.

BTW, I am firmly convinced of an early date for Revelation. I first saw the best argumentation for that from Philip Schaff, years before I became Preterist. This earlier date (Nero, not Domitian) has a necessary bearing of this entire topic.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Thank you for the detailed response. Later this morning I will get into this more specifically. But for starters I would suggest we consider the necessary background of chapter 15. This all relates to the "Song of Moses". And that relates directly to Israel, not Rome.

Interesting comparison. I look forward to understanding your position.

I appreciate that you numbered your points. It will be easier to answer them the same way.

No problem. Great to know, I will do that in future posts when I expect debate on a plethora of points.

BTW, I am firmly convinced of an early date for Revelation. I first saw the best argumentation for that from Philip Schaff, years before I became Preterist. This earlier date (Nero, not Domitian) has a necessary bearing of this entire topic.

My posts #20, #27, and #28 should interest you. Nero is the sixth dictator of the Roman Empire. Julius Caesar was the first dictator, not Augustus, who was first "emperor." However, the line of succession goes to the seed of Julius Caesar. If John is at Patmos during Nero's reign, then the Roman Empire truly is the Beast with seven heads, five fallen, one reigning, and one to come that is the Beast and goes to destruction. The imagery must be interpreted with this in mind, given the audience will know full well that Nero is the sixth of the imperial line.

 

[asterisktom]

Interesting comparison. I look forward to understanding your position.

I had written three years back on the Jewish background on these chapters in Revelation. The thread is here:
And they Sing the Song of Moses . . .

I made three or four posts in this short thread that directly relate to your topic.

More to come a bit later. We are trying to book a flight out of Ukraine but our bank does not recognize my local phone number as valid. So this has been a real headache that I need to tackle.

But I do have great interest in this topic and hope to contribute more. BTW, I am also an avid historian, taught it high school back in the day. Two books that I especially recommend for this topic is, of course, Josephus and The Annals of Ussher - specifically the recent reprint edited by Larry and Marion Pierce, thoroughly annotated with lots of fascinating appendices to boot..

 

[kyredneck]

I thank God regularly that this is now all making more and more sense.

AMEN!

18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold Wondrous things out of thy law.
162 I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil. Ps 119

 

[kyredneck]

the lady that gave birth to Jesus

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4

The Jerusalem that is above is described as celestial:

1 And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars; Rev 12

This celestial woman not only "gave birth to Jesus" but is the mother of us all:

17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus: Rev 12

This is what Christ was speaking of in Jn 3:

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; Jn 3 YLT

[add]

Does God Love the Seed of the Serpent?

 

[kyredneck]

the lady that gave birth to Jesus

....incidentally, the 'two women' of Gal 4 are the same 'two women' of Revelation.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I have finished assembling the characteristics of the Beast Out of the Sea. This should help to identify candidates for that Beast. The following attributes are derived from Daniel 2, Daniel 7, Revelation 13, and revelation 17.

First, we are told in Daniel that this will be a kingdom ruled by kings. Thus, the Beast if not just a ruler but set of rulers and the people they rule. (Daniel 7:23)

• It is a kingdom that has authority over all the tribes, nations, peoples, and tongues of the earth (Revelation 13:7, Daniel 7:23)
• This kingdom is out of the sea and is therefore a Gentile one (Revelation 13:1)
  
• This kingdom has many blasphemous names (Revelation 17:3)
  
• This kingdom has a time to act of forty two months, given it at least encompasses the Roman Empire, this seems indicative of a time of tribulation (Revelation 13:5)
• It will be a strong kingdom able to other kingdoms in pieces (Daniel 2:40-41)
• This will be a divided kingdom (Daniel 2:41)
• This will be a kingdom with some parts strong and some brittle (Daniel 2:42)
• It will be a kingdom whose parts mix in marriage but will still not adhere together despite this (Daniel 2:43)
  
• It is a kingdom that will speak arrogant words and blasphemies, including against God and those in heaven (Revelation 13:5-6)
• It is a kingdom that has aspects of Alexander the Great's Empire, the Persian Empire, and the Babylonian Empire (Revelation 13:2)
• This kingdom has Satan's power, throne, and great authority over his earth (Revelation 13:2)
• People are in awe of this kingdom and worship it because no one can war with this kingdom and win (Revelation 13:4)
• The world worships Satan who gave such authority to this kingdom (Revelation 13:4)
• All those on the earth who are not Believers in Jesus Christ will worship this kingdom (Revelation 13:8)
• This kingdom will make war with and persecute the saints (Revelation 13:7)
• This kingdom has seven heads that are seven kings, five have already ruled, one is ruling when the prophecy is given, one is yet to come (Revelation 17:8)
• This kingdom will have a head that is slain, but the fatal wound is healed. Amazed, the whole world follows this kingdom (Revelation 13:3)
• The seven heads of the kingdom have blasphemous names on them (Revelation 13:1)
  
• The ten horns of the kingdom have diadems, a royal symbol, and the ten horns are ten kings (Revelation 13:1, Daniel 7:24)
• These ten kings that will have one purpose, to give their power and authority to the kingdom of the beast (Revelation 17:13)
• The ten kings will rule for a short while and will share their authority with the kingdom of the beast (Revelation 17:12)
• These ten kings had not received a kingdom when this prophecy is given (Revelation 17:12)
• The ten kings will make war on Jesus Christ, but He will overcome them; Those with Jesus Christ are the called and chosen and faithful (Revelation 17:14)
• These ten kings will give their power and authority and kingdom to the kingdom of the beast (Revelation 17:17)
• The ten kings and the king that is the beast will hate the city of the Harlot and will do harm to it (Revelation 17:16)
• The ten kings will have a purpose put in their hearts by God, a common purpose with God to do harm to the city of the Harlot (Revelation 17:18)
  
• After the ten kings reign there will be an eleventh king different form the ten kings. This eleventh king will conquer three kings, he will speak out against God, he will persecute the saints, he will intend to change the Torah. (Daniel 7:24-25)
• After the kingdom of the beast, Jesus Christ will reign (Daniel 7:27)
• It appears because the ten king are ruling the one kingdom of the beast, they will not all come at the same time, but one after another as befits a king and a kingdom. Otherwise, we are saying the kingdom of the beast will have ten kings at one time. (Daniel 7:24)
• Jesus Christ will destroy the eleventh king at His coming (Daniel 7:26)

Imagery that is difficult to decode for me,

• Why is the beast scarlet? (Revelation 17:3)
• We are told the beast was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction (Revelation 17:8)
• We are told the people of the earth whose name is not in the book of life will wonder at this kingdom because it once was, now is not, and will come (Revelation 17:8)
• What does the fact the beast and the harlot in the wilderness mean? (Revelation 17:3)
• How do we interpret that the king yet to come is the beast and the seventh king that will rule for just a little while and then the seventh king will go to his destruction? (Revelation 17:10-11)
• What does intending to change the "times" mean in relation to the eleventh king after the ten kings? (Daniel 7:25)
• What does it mean that the eleventh king will persecute the saints for a time, times, and half a time? (Daniel 7:25)

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I feel it is imperative to understanding what the beast is, to mention a powerful work by a Confessor of the faith on the run his whole life. His name is Menno Simons, and he led a very persecuted church during the Reformation.

He refers to two churches in history. A true body of Christ that has faith in Jesus and practices the will of Him. The other church is a church of Antichrist that is full of self procaimed Christians and delights in accruing tyrannical government authority to use against the saints. A church of Antichrist full of those who do not have faith in Jesus Christ, and prove it with their treatment of Christians who disagree with them.

Menno Simons.net - Life, complete writings, doctrine, images and links

This church of Antichrist in my view has a lot going for it in understanding the beast, for what is blasphemy but claiming to be Christ's direct agent and in doing so martyr the true saints? We can look beyond Menno Simons and see people like John Bunyan or those in Foxe's book of the martyrs.