Europe, are you nuts?

I am as nearly as anti-Bush as you are - that doesn't mean that I have to attack the entire American electoral process. I do understand that many europeans only dislike Bush, but your hatred of Bush led you to falsly attack the whole process. If Kerry had won the elecotral college but lost the popular vote I think that you would not have called the system antiquated.

And since this thread is supposed to be about Europe - how do you defend the fact that 80% of the French people opposed your president in the last election and the only reason he had such a majority in the run-off is that his opponent was a fascist? </font>[/QUOTE]I did not attack the system, I criticised it and said it did not seem adequate to a democracy, or even a republic (France is also a republic, after all). And I do not hate Bush, I just happen to dislike the way he governs, and think that he is not a very good Christian. i have no hate for him and no love for Kerry either. If Kerry had won, I would still think the same thing about the electoral college.

You must have read my previous post by now about Chirac so I will just repeat here that between 75 and 80% of the French voters plebiscited Chirac in the Second round. In the first round, LePen's extreme right party, which usually gets around 10-12% of votes, doubled its number of votes because around 13% of the French population decided to make a protest vote. Nothing new, it is typical of the French voters. Politicians in France do not mess with the French voters. They'd have riots or a revolution on their hands in a thunderbolt flash.

These 13% then went on voting for Chirac in the second round, as only the most conservative would have dared vote that way in the first round. It was a warning to the government and also to the arab community.

Corinne

 

Okay - I knew eventually you would give me cause to praise the French people. They at least have to courage (in the first round of voting) to lodge a protest vote. I also admire the fact that the French people realise that there voice means something in an election.

I still think you are 100% wrong to criticise the Electoral College. America acts as a Republic, not a Democracy. Our states elect the president, not the populace. I think when it is all said and done the EU executive will also be chosen by the member states, not by the people of Europe as an electoral body.

 

Once again we find agreement Corrine.

 

Thank you.

We can agree to disagree on the electoral college. About Europe, it may be that the member states will elect the Executive, I don't know. All I know is that the French people will not accept anything threatening the integrity of our nation and its values. But since the European constitution is a French idea, I think that with a bit of luck, we will be ok.

Corinne

 

It looks like you dislike a lot more about America than just President Bush.

You do have a point though. Americans who live there really think their society is liberal, in the world scope it is indeed a conservative culture.

 

And most Americans think the French are wimps . I disagree with much of what you have said Corrine, but you have given a good account of yourself and defended your country quite well

 

You operate under a number of misconceptions. The national press corps supported Kerry over Bush by a 12:1 margin. The threat of being sued by the ACLU and others has led many municipalities to enact policies that forbid any kind of religious expression on public property... even if other types of speech are allowed.

Thank the Lord the liberals didn't control Congress while the internet was on the rise! They have already attempted to tax it and many want restrictions on those same conservative sites that you mention.

There are no conservative equivalents to Jennings, Rather, and the now retired Brokaw. There are no conservative equivalents to the AP, Reuters, or the NY Times.

Liberals here know exactly who he is... which is why Kerry called him in when the ship began to sink.

Certainly. The difference is that Moore's movie which was very inaccurate, undocumented, and unfair was widely acclaimed by the liberal media establishment. While conservative documentaries that were well researched were ignored or outright suppressed. In PA, a theatre was pressured by surrogates of the Kerry campaign so much that they cancelled an agreement to rent to a conservative group that wanted to show the film publicly.

The joke is that you don't know what you are talking about. The US murder rate excluding the Kerry "blue" counties is comparable to Europe. Guns do not kill without someone pulling the trigger.

That was not the intent of the 2nd Amendment. Our founders wanted government officials to have a healthy respect for the ability of an individual citizen to protect their rights from tyranny.

Not if the police can raid you home with those type weapons.

Many do. They know as well as anyone that the only people who obey gun laws are law abiding people. Criminals don't care what the law says.

Concealed carry laws have reduced crime far more than gun control ever did. One to in Georgia had an ordinance that every homeowner had to own a gun... and publicized it. It is doubtful that everyone obeyed the law but crime dropped significantly even as surrounding towns saw a rise.

So now someone should assume who is going to murder and who is going to defend? How should that be done?

I know there are pro-life Dems. My dad is one.

That is a self negating statement. Either the unborn qualify as human beings by the test we apply to "borned" people or they don't. You cannot simultaneously support the protection of someone and the legality of someone arbitrarily killing them.

The unborn have not violated anyone's rights nor committed any crime at all. They are the result of someone else's bad decision... so they should die?

Murderers have performed the ultimate act of rights violation and should face an equitable penalty. I also think rape should be treated on par with murder as far as punishments are concerned.

No. Some people are guilty and some people are not.

 

Corinne,

I think you are making the mistake of equating the Republican party with conservatim. That used to be true to some degree, but over the last 10-20 years a shift has taken place. The Repblican party and the Democrat party are both liberal, and their policies, overall, are endorsed by the major media. There is no effective opposition at this time.

 

Based on what I've read here John Kerry had it right. If Americans had a question of how or what to do we would just go to the U.N. and let them tell us what to do.
I am always amazed that everybody in the world knows what we should do better than we do.

 

Scott
"Why do Europeans hate Bush so much? You expect American's to lead then complain when we do."
"
In Bush's case it's that whole wrong direction thing I guess.

"We should spend our money protecting ourselves, drop out of international trade and environmental treaties, cut off foreign aid"
"
Trust me most of those are beneficial for the US, even the foreign aid.

 

Who are you (Europe) to say that we are going in the wrong direction?

I know the justifications for our international involvements are but just then you demonstrated the attitude in Europe that so many of us resent. "Trust me" rings of a smug condescending lecture. As if we aren't smart enough to figure things out on our own.

'Trust me', if it was your Euros and blood that kept order in the world, you would appreciate our frustration with current European criticism and in some cases betrayal.

 

Why does everyone capitilise "euro" but not dollar, yen, or pound?

It is "euro" and the plural of euro is technically "euro".

Just a note for future reference.

[ December 03, 2004, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

I think what we are experiencing and demonstrating here is a massive transatlantic gulf in perception of what constitutes 'right-wing' and 'left-wing'. You see, to us over here, your political system seems skewed far to the right of ours; even the Democrats, apart from their ill-advised commitment to 'trendy' issues like gay rights and abortion, would never dream of instituting a National Health Service such as we possess here. Conversely, doubtless to American eyes our right-wing parties will seem dreadfully pinko-liberal; Maggie Thatcher, arguably the most right-wing (from our POV) ruler democratic (ie: not Hitler or Franco )Europe has ever seen, whilst she cut back investment in the NHS and promoted private alternatives, never attempted to abolish it. There's the irony of the perception gap - a hard-right (from a European perspective) politician propping up what Americans would call 'socialised' medicine; Mrs Thatch would either laugh or cry at that analysis!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Yeah, you are rather messed up over there.

Seriously, though, you make a good point about perceptions. Still, when you think about American politics, you will become confused if you assume that there is a big difference between our two major parties. That's why many Americans are confused over it.

 

And most Americans think the French are wimps . I disagree with much of what you have said Corrine, but you have given a good account of yourself and defended your country quite well </font>[/QUOTE]i don't know why americans would think of the French as wimps, maybe you can give clear examples? our intelligence services are as good as yours, and deemed to be more ruthless even, and our army is as good as yours (OK with less soldiers and less equipment, but we are a 60 million people country and you are a 250 million country, so put things in perspective). We have been occupied many times and always managed to throw out the occupant (last time was with your help), I don't think those who fought the French in any war think we are wimps. Ever heard our national hymn?

Corinne

 

...Snicker snicker...

 

And most Americans think the French are wimps . I disagree with much of what you have said Corrine, but you have given a good account of yourself and defended your country quite well </font>[/QUOTE]i don't know why americans would think of the French as wimps, maybe you can give clear examples?
Corinne </font>[/QUOTE]I think you missed a compliment again Corrine. I was saying that your arguments have have proven just the opposite.

 

The difference is though, Jim, that whilst you think they're both left-wing, we see them both as right-wing

Yours in Christ

Matt