Evangelical Primitive Baptist....Not Cavinistic

[changed_like_saul]

Dear Brother Temple,

My bad, yes I did miss quote the verse in Isaiah. So, allow me to clear it up.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Notice God said:
So shall my word....the Hebrew here for "word" is daw-baw = the spoken word.

God said His spoken word, that which comes from the mouth of God.

...it shall not return unto me void,...

What ever God speaks will accomplish what He sent it out to do.

...and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I send it.


Brother Temple, you said

"Our disagreement is over the means of God's effectual call to salvation, which is always through his Word."


Brother, Isaiah 55:11 is a verse which contradicts your assertion that God uses scripture to bring forth regeneration. The last part of Is 55:11 says...and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. God said His spoken word "shall prosper". If a person rejects God's word (written word which is different that His spoken word. Not to mention that it is a preacher doing the talking now a days.) that makes God a liar, doesn't it? God did say His spoken word will not return unto Him void and it will accomplish what He sent it out to do.

If someone asserts scripture as being what regenerates a man and it fails, then God is a liar. Life is through and by Christ and Christ alone. Remember, for the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but to us who are the saved, it is the power of God. The preached word is foolishness to those that perish and if it's foolishness to them, how can they believe what scripture says. They can't and will not.

Okay on to something else in your last post.

You Quoted John 5:24, which I believe. However, you must read the next verse for clarification. Which is John 5:25

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

,…The hour is coming,…..
Christ is speaking of the resurrection. The day He comes to take His people home. That is the hour which is coming.

…and now is,…
Christ is speaking of the thing which was at that time and which continues today. What is our Lord speaking of? He answers with the rest of His statement.

…when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Christ is speaking of the elect hearing His voice when He calls them by name. Furthermore, Christ said they that hear shall live. They that hear the preaching of the cross? They that hear the verse John 3:16? No!! Christ said they that hear the VOICE of the Son of God shall live, not the preacher’s voice.

Be it known, this verse is not speaking of the resurrection from the grave, because Christ speaks of that three verses later saying Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

We are told by scripture that we are dead in our trespasses and sins. Sense we are dead, we can do nothing. We have no need to be feed spiritually, because we have no spiritual life. We have no need for water, because a dead man does not thirst for spiritual things.

Psalms 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. The Psalmist tells us, scripture is a light. Who is it that needs light? Only those with life need light to see.

God Bless

Changed like Saul, by God’s grace

Elder Chris Folsom
www.pbsermons.org

 

[Pastor Larry]

1 cor 1:21 should be of interest here:

1 Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

It was the message preached through which God saves those who believe. It is a "foolish" message to be sure -- not the way that someone else would do it. A crucified Messiah was a contradiction in terms, a stumblingblock, a foolish thought.

To God it was the wisdom that he chose. Man cannot be saved apart from that message. The message does not simply inform people that they are saved; it is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16). It is the means by which we are "born again" (1 Peter 23).

 

[changed_like_saul]

it's funny how folks do not deal with the verses i have laid forth for consideration.

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by changed_like_saul:
it's funny how folks do not deal with the verses i have laid forth for consideration.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are referring here to Isa 55:11, you have no point.

1. dbr does not always mean spoken word. It can refer to acts, things, words, written words (such as in Ps 119; Josh 8:34; 2 Kings 22:11; etc.). It has a wide range. It appears over 2600 times in Scripture.

2. The purpose of the Word is not only to regenerate. In Isa 6, a passage quote by Christ, the Word hardens people. It reveals God, reveals his purposes, informs, warns, creates, sustains, etc. The Word of the Lord has many purposes which do not have to do with regeneration. So the word of the Lord going forth and not returning void may refer to hardening as well. Thus when people reject the Word of the Lord, the word is accomplishing its purpose. To say that its purpose is limited to regeneration is too small to do justice to the biblical text.

3. Your dichotomy between the word of God and the speaker is a needless one. The prophets spoke the Word of the Lord; the apostles spoke the Word of the Lord. In Josh 8, Joshua the people together and says hear the Word of the Lord. Then Joshua proceeds to speak with his own voice authoritatively. Each of the prophets did a similar thing. These examples could be cited ad nauseum. The preacher also speaks the Word of the Lord. Rom 10:14 contributes in this respect:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Notice the lack of a preposition in the second question after him. It does not say, How will they believe in him of whom they have not heard. It says, How will they believe in him whom they have not heard. Clearly, the preacher is "him" whom they need to hear when he speaks according to the Word of God. When he preaches the word of Christ, he is preachign Christ and he becomes, in a sense, the voice of Christ. When someone preaches or teaches according to the Word of God rightly interpreted, they are the "Word of God" to that person.

Your position of a dichotomy between the words of the speaker and the word of God calls into question the inspiration and authority of God's word. It opens the door to a neo-orthodox or liberal view of Scripture by saying that since man says it, it is not really God's word. God's word works through the speaker to accomplish its purpose of regeneration, hardening, warning, revelation, etc.

4. Notice 1 Peter 1:22-25. Look at the progression: "You have been born again (given new life; regenerated) through the living and enduring word of God ... the word which is eternal ... the word that was preached to you." Your position seems to require a direct denial of Peter's clear teaching.

5. You says If someone asserts scripture as being what regenerates a man and it fails, then God is a liar. This assumes to much. Scripture never fails to regenerate those whom God has chosen. It never intended to regenerate anyone else. Again, you rightly assert that life comes from Christ; but your conclusion is unwarranted. God has chosen that life be given only in conjunction with the Word. Your position has people saved who do not know they are a sinner. Your position devalues revelation of God.

It is not a matter of how God could give life. It is a matter of how God said he would bring about regeneration in the life. It is through the Word, if the Word of God means what it says.

More could be said but I will refrain.

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If you are referring here to Isa 55:11, you have no point.

1. dbr does not always mean spoken word. It can refer to acts, things, words, written words (such as in Ps 119; Josh 8:34; 2 Kings 22:11; etc.). It has a wide range. It appears over 2600 times in Scripture.

2. The purpose of the Word is not only to regenerate. In Isa 6, a passage quote by Christ, the Word hardens people. It reveals God, reveals his purposes, informs, warns, creates, sustains, etc. The Word of the Lord has many purposes which do not have to do with regeneration. So the word of the Lord going forth and not returning void may refer to hardening as well. Thus when people reject the Word of the Lord, the word is accomplishing its purpose. To say that its purpose is limited to regeneration is too small to do justice to the biblical text.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said. I agree.

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rlvaughn:
I'm confused. Chris Temple, are you saying that God regenerates (gives life to) man but he is not saved until he believes? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm saying God regenerates the dead sinner and the regenerate will believe. We are saved by grace, through faith. Regeneration without belief is an impossibility. And although regeneration logically precedes belief, the new birth is itself instantaneous, a "single action rather than a process" (Erickson, Christian Theology, page 957).

John 3.3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

[Chris Temple]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rlvaughn:
Another question for Chris, Chris, and all:

Trying to narrow this down so we are not just talking semantics, because as I see it you both are saying that regeneration precedes and is necessary to belief. SO, to see if we are all talking about the same thing - what is regeneration; how and when does it take place?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Easton's - Regeneration — only found in Matt. 19:28 and Titus 3:5. This word literally means a “new birth.” The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matt. 19:28 the word is equivalent to the “restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1 John 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17); being born again (John 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2:6); a being quickened (2:1, 5).
This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4).
As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul; the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature “dead in trespasses and sins.”
The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture (John 3:3; Rom. 7:18; 8:7–9; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1; 4:21–24). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[changed_like_saul]

Brother Larry,

You are as long winded as me

Some very good points you made, but the spoken word of God does mean just that the "spoken" word in this verse.

Also, Please see the post on Romans 10 concerning your comments about the gospel preacher must be sent for anyone to hear.

One can not ignore verses like John 5:25, which I discussed on the previous post.


It is Christ alone. Not scripture that brings life. Jesus doesn't need anything to bring life to one of His.

Changed like Saul, by God's grace

Elder Chris Folsom
www.pbsermons.org

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: changed_like_saul ]