Evangelist Teen Ministry Question of Doctrine

[TheOliveBranch]

I don't believe I was hostile, or rude in stating my opinion. My opinion is what you wanted to hear, or is it? I also was not telling you, Evan, that you can't do what you are doing. I brought your attention to I Tim 3:7 to back up my position. I have given you my stand and the belief of the circles I come from. Talk to the pastor before you even step into the church. He will appreciate you for this.

Do you agree by scripture that a Deacon is suppose to be able to guide and direct and yes, even preach when the pulpit is empty. Where do you balance scripture then?

Are you assuming this is my belief?!!
My Churches have the same standards for a deacon and for a pastor as written in the Bible. They wouldn't be in difference on this subject because they wouldn't be deacons.

Liberal mindset is dominant on this board. That is why the majority agree with you. Like I said, if you stay in the churches that accept this stand, you will have no problem with the little bit of preaching that you do. My circle of Baptists will look at it in this way, and not appreciate you stepping in holding onto the beliefs you have.

[ August 14, 2002, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: TheOliveBranch ]

 

[TheOliveBranch]

hrhema,

When Paul was speaking about the qualifications he was not dealing with the issue of men who had been divorced and remarried. He was dealing with men who were polygamist. Doesn't anyone on this board realize that polygamy was still practiced at this time among the Jews?

My Bible doesn't state that this is the specific. It does apply, as does a pastor seeking office married after divorce (adultery Mark 10, Luke 16).

I also take exception to those who tell preachers they have to leave the ministry because their wives commit adultery against them and they get divorced.

Matthew tells us that it was the hardness of the heart that divorce was given, but it was for fornication (Matthew 19), a totally different sin. The adultery comes after divorce, when the person remarries. Why do you think the whole subject in the Bible was to tempt Jesus? And when this happens, that pastor surely isn't blameless & ruling his house well (I Tim & Tit).

My answer to the question stays the same. And I think you can continue to believe the way you do, you just wouldn't make it in the Baptist circles I am in, and I doubt you would want to.

 

[Sherrie]

I may not fit into anyones circle my ownself but the real issue is not that he is divorced and then forgiven.....The issue is as a saved person whoses sins were forgiven...even divorce....is it or is it not right to re-marry after divorce.

And I do question the fact that as a person who has power in the church, or is a leader in the church, someone teaching and ministering to young minds, has a problem dealing with this issue. Perhaps this ministry is not for you. As was stated above, you will and are someone teens will be vunerable to, and you really need to have your stuff together. Perhaps your love for serving God is better used somewhere else.

Your reputation is questionable when you raise issues that are opposing scripture, or challenging Gods word. Twisting scripture to fit your needs for a paticular time in your life is not right. To play ignorant, and say I did that while I was not saved, so because of that, I should be able to get married. That this paticular rule does not pertain to me. That as some have stated, to go by Gods rule, is making me held under the law. So therefore it is ok for me to sin ontop of being a person whose sins have been washed. You actually knew when you asked that question it was wrong. It was already convicted in your heart.

You can't make up the rules as you go. And you Can't have it both ways.

 

[Evan]

You see, I was not taking you to be hostile Olive Branch or Sherrie. I know what scripture states and you can see the difference already in these response's. I will not go into the divorce issue of 25 years ago, only to tell you there was very good bibical reasons even beyond what I didn't know not being saved. I have no conviction on my heart for what happened 25 years ago and for very good reasons. I still want to hear the opinions and weather I agree or disagree is not the issue. Better served in other areas I will ponder. But I think I am where I am 17 years later because of God's directions and not man's. Thanks.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Evan,

Use the little graemlins when you write.

I never used them at first and I really came across to some as hostile. Amazing little creatures they are

 

[hrhema]

Olive Branch: Fornication is between unmarried individuals not Adultery. Adultery is not just when someone remarries someone who is divorced but when two people who are married to different people have sexual relationships

Paul stated that there were two reasons why a person can divorce and remarry. Infidelity and if a unbeliever leaves the marriage. This includes a believer who chooses to walk out of the marriage because they no longer believe in Christ No where and I do mean no where in the Bible does it say these people cannot be part of the Ministry. Matter of fact the Bible says the calling of God is without repentance.

My interpretation of what Paul said has just as much merit as yours or any preacher out there.
The bible does not say exactly that the one wife Paul was speaking of means one wife period or only one wife at a time.

No I would not run in your circles. They are actually just like the Pharisees. Don't show mercy to anyone and uses the Bible to judge others when it is only Gods right to judge. Jesus made that very clear.

I tell you what makes me sick is when I hear people talk like this when they should look in their own churches because I guarantee you you have individuals on the deacons board that by scripture do not belong there.

 

[TheOliveBranch]

Originally posted by hrhema:
Olive Branch: Fornication is between unmarried individuals not Adultery. Adultery is not just when someone remarries someone who is divorced but when two people who are married to different people have sexual relationships

Didn't I say that? I was referring to Matt 19. Oh, did I leave out Matt 5:14? , this is thoughts that are considered to be commiting adultery.

Paul stated that there were two reasons why a person can divorce and remarry. Infidelity and if a unbeliever leaves the marriage. This includes a believer who chooses to walk out of the marriage because they no longer believe in Christ

Tell me, where you could find remarriage, besides for the widows in I Tim 5:14?

No where and I do mean no where in the Bible does it say these people cannot be part of the Ministry. Matter of fact the Bible says the calling of God is without repentance.

I have stated my opinions & Bible verse, so as not to be the broken record...

My interpretation of what Paul said has just as much merit as yours or any preacher out there.
The bible does not say exactly that the one wife Paul was speaking of means one wife period or only one wife at a time.

Did I not sound as if I already said this very same thing?

No I would not run in your circles. They are actually just like the Pharisees. Don't show mercy to anyone and uses the Bible to judge others when it is only Gods right to judge. Jesus made that very clear.

You need to read I Cor 2:6-16.

I tell you what makes me sick is when I hear people talk like this when they should look in their own churches because I guarantee you you have individuals on the deacons board that by scripture do not belong there.

If you don't go there, you do not know, much less able to guarantee it. Besides, I have stated, as I will once again, this is my Baptist circle that I am in. I wouldn't ask you to believe the way we do.

hrhema, are you being hostile? Maybe I could understand you better if you use those graemlins. They do add to the emotion of the statement

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Sherrie:
Also Aaron....if his wife was commiting adultry and he divorced her for this would it be ok for him to re-marry. I know who ever his wife would remarry would be commiting adultry right along with her...then...too...right? OR even vice versa.

Yes, that is right. I'm not certain that it matters whether or not it happened before one's conversion:

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all...

Marriage is a universal institution. Regardless of the religion in which it was solemnized, God has joined them together. So unless the marriage was dissolved because of the unfaithfulness of one partner, the separation itself is adulterous, and his wife's subsequent remarriage further complicates matters.

So, what is to be done? Evan will receive mercy because he divorced in ignorance and unbelief, 1 Timothy 1:13. God will not bring upon him many of the temporal judgments that awaited him (his soul is eternally saved, I'm not talking about that), but whether that means he has the right to remarry is still questionable. Evan has not been forthcoming in the reasons for his divorce, but he does hint at it.

I think St. Paul gave the best advice. "Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife."

 

[Evan]

Ok, ok here it is. My spouse of 23 years ago was unfaithful not once but twice. She left to live with someone else and filed for divorce. After two years of trying to stop it, I gave up and let her have her way. I moved away. Is she remarried? Don't know! 4 years after the divorce and 3 years before I was saved, I remarried which is the wife I am with who is also saved. One wife. I believe so folks. Evan

 

[Evan]

Don't know how to use the Gremlins. The last one looks as if it is sticking its tongue out. If so, I wouldn't have used it as I have no intention of being rude by that gesture. Sorry. Evan

 

[Justified]

Originally posted by Evan:

Ok, ok here it is. My spouse of 23 years ago was unfaithful not once but twice. She left to live with someone else and filed for divorce. After two years of trying to stop it, I gave up and let her have her way. I moved away. Is she remarried? Don't know! 4 years after the divorce and 3 years before I was saved, I remarried which is the wife I am with who is also saved. One wife. I believe so folks. Evan

Evan,

By your own words, I remarried , you are in adultery right now. What God hath put together, let no man tear assunder! How can you even think about leading and preaching the teens with this in your backround?

You are not blameless!

And you are under the same qualifacations as anyone else in the ministry. Which many have listed for you already. I may also suggest, that if you decide to continue in this ministry, that you get out of the Baptist circles and look for more liberal churches, to bring this leven into.

Brother, please consider this with prayer and fasting, and study this thouroghly for yourself, and don't go by your feelings and emotions.

"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version

[ August 14, 2002, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Justified ]

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by hrhema:
I have heard the name legalist put upon different individuals and have heard individuals spout things interpreted by the Greek but no one who deals with the qualifications of a leader in the church ever interprets the scriptures dealing with this correctly.

When Paul was speaking about the qualifications he was not dealing with the issue of men who had been divorced and remarried. He was dealing with men who were polygamist. Doesn't anyone on this board realize that polygamy was still practiced at this time among the Jews?

Why would God refuse to allow a man to preach
because he got a divorce before he knew Jesus?
Any group of deacons or preachers out there who stand in judgement of others who made mistakes and sinnes before they were saved need to give up their positions because they don't know what forgiveness is and they sure don't know what mercy is. These who stand in judgement are just like the Pharisees. Self righteous. Reminds me of Jimmy Swaggart who got up and bashed Jim Bakker and Marvin Gorman for their failures and then turned right around a year later and fell into the same sin.

There is a big difference when a person gets a divorce after they are saved and there is no justification for it. I also take exception to those who tell preachers they have to leave the ministry because their wives commit adultery against them and they get divorced. God does not hold that pastor or minister guilty because of their wives infidelity. Any one who thinks so
does not understand grace.

So many people are so dogmatic about these things until it happens to them then Katy Bar the Door the tables are turned and so is their belief.
I know of many preachers and deacons etc who were so dogmatic along this line until it happened to them and boy did things change. They got married again and dared anyone to ask them to step down.

I have heard people tell men in the ministry that they have to quit preaching because their wife died and they got remarried. This is such garbage. People tend to want to interpret scripture to fit their standards and their beliefs but don't want to look at scripture in the light of the reason it was written in the first place.

What a person did before salvation has been forgiven and washed under the blood of Jesus.
God said he won't remember those sins anymore and neither does anyone have that right to play God and drag it up. If God forgives and forgets so are we commanded to do so.

Amen! Amen! Amen!

Brother you hit the nail on the head and pushed it through to the other side!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Justified:
By your own words, I remarried , you are in adultery right now. What God hath put together, let no man tear assunder! How can you even think about leading and preaching the teens with this in your backround?

Maybe because God called him.

You are not blameless!

Neither are you. Why do you dare pass judgment?

And you are under the same qualifacations as anyone else in the ministry. Which many have listed for you already. I may also suggest, that if you decide to continue in this ministry, that you get out of the Baptist circles and look for more liberal churches, to bring this leven into.

Friend, I'm convinced Jesus would have a hard time in your circles.

Brother, please consider this with prayer and fasting, and study this thouroghly for yourself, and don't go by your feelings and emotions.

I will advise the same for you. Ask God about grace, responsibility, and judging others. (I'm serious about this. I will pray for you during this time -- we can do it together.)

"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version

Conservatives crucified Jesus. So did liberals. You really need to get away from this "conservative/liberal" garbage.

Evan, you will face a lot of close-minded "Christians" who love to find fault with others. Marriage is made for people, not people for marriage. Your previous marriage sounds like it could not be humanly repaired. You then remarried. Whether that was a good decision or not, you have made a marriage commitment that you need to keep. God does not hold things over our heads like so many of our brothers and sisters like to do -- especially things that happened before you came to know the Lord. You are a new creature and not "guilty" of what has gone before.

Go in peace and ignore the foolishness of those who oppose you. God will direct your paths.

 

[Sherrie]

Evan...no one is questioning the fact that you have been forgiven of all your sins. But what people are saying is that you cannot remarry! The divorce was before the forgiveness....the marriage was after being saved.

Remarrying is what you did after you were saved. Yes even though your sins are forgiven and forgotten does not give you the legal right to go out and make more. There are consequences of sin. And frankly this is one of them. If you read your Bible you know from all the scripture this is wrong. I think you want a loop whole. God already gave you one....His Son.

Say what you will...but you would not be an example to any of my children. You are not someone who would be teaching my children. I do not mean to sound mean and rude. But you do not understand your own question and you really don't want to. This is an issue we teach our children. Divorce is an absolute wrong. Adultry is wrong. Sex before marriage is wrong. You are acting out one of the things Jesus says is wrong. You are saying those rules were only for the people in the Bible time....and I teach my children Gods word is the same today as it was yesterday. While its true we are not held under the law.....Jesus tells us to obey the commandments. He adds 1 more...love our neighbor as ourselves.

He specifically addesses the very fact in Matthew that you hearts were hard and that is why Moses permitted it. BUT it was wrong!

I still believe you have been convicted in your heart and you do not like it. I think you are rebellous. I think you want a loop whole and you can't find it. I think you are feeling very guilty as well as those people coming down on you.

I still stick by my first opinion of this and say you have no business teaching or ministering to those teens. You have to be together your ownself. You are not. Your services would be better served somewhere else. I am not being judgemental.

You need to be in continuous prayer with God. He has the answer. Ask that your heart be soft...your eyes be open...and your ears open to hear all that His Spirit has to tell you. Pray he gives you the wisdom to listen...the knowledge to your question...and the understanding to apply it in your life. Pray you are always in Gods sight...that he would lead you in your journeys. I will pray for you too Evan....but only you can ask of God what you need.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Sherrie:
Evan...no one is questioning the fact that you have been forgiven of all your sins. But what people are saying is that you cannot remarry!

Certainly not everyone...

The divorce was before the forgiveness....the marriage was after being saved.

I don't think he needs forgiveness, but even if he did, why isn't there forgiveness now?

Remarrying is what you did after you were saved. Yes even though your sins are forgiven and forgotten does not give you the legal right to go out and make more. There are consequences of sin. And frankly this is one of them. If you read your Bible you know from all the scripture this is wrong.

Nope. The Bible is pretty clear that Jesus gave an exception for adultery... even though so many people here want to correct what Jesus said. If he were living in the Old Testament times, his wife would have likely been stoned to death and he would have been a widower, free to remarry. Just because his wife hasn't been actually executed doesn't change the principle.

I think you want a loop whole. God already gave you one....His Son.

Jesus is not a loophole. He is the Son of God who gave Himself for us.

Divorce is an absolute wrong. Adultry is wrong. Sex before marriage is wrong.

It is strange that divorce is an "absolute" wrong while adultery and fornication are only "wrong." Worse yet, Jesus allows divorce under certain conditions but you insist on condemning that option...

You need to be in continuous prayer with God. He has the answer. Ask that your heart be soft...your eyes be open...and your ears open to hear all that His Spirit has to tell you. Pray he gives you the wisdom to listen...the knowledge to your question...and the understanding to apply it in your life. Pray you are always in Gods sight...that he would lead you in your journeys. I will pray for you too Evan....but only you can ask of God what you need.

It's good advice. Please take it yourself and ask God about your position on divorce and remarriage again. You might be surprised at the answer.

 

[cojosh]

Evan,

Everyone who has been born into God's family has a responsibility to evangelize the lost and to minister to those in need. If God has given you a burden for teens then that's where you should be. Since you are working as an evangelist you are not in a church position of pastor, elder, deacon. The qualifications can't apply to you. Evangelism is a responsibility, a gift, & a calling. All Christians should be practising it under one of these titles if not all three.

It would be very respectable if you would speak to the pastor concerning your situation. Some will understand, some will not. This would be out of consideration for that individual church. The pastor has the right to know because it is his pulpit. He has a responsibility to his people not to allow anything that may cause divisions.

As far as being an example to the teens, just teach them from your own experience that divorce is not something that God is pleased with. It would be a better example than sitting on the pew, defeated because of things that happened before your conversion. It's just by grace that we all haven't went through a divorce. It would be wrong to try to tear your entire life apart for something that happened 7 years before you met Christ.

Anyway, I encourage your ministry.

 

[Sherrie]

If it is a stumbling block and causes confusion then why are you doing it?

What purpose is there to gain?

Why don't you just move on to a place where it will not be a stumbling block?

And by the way.......He stated he did not put his wife away because of adultry. She left moved in with another man and divorced him. None-the-less, she was very wrong! It is adultry! And I am so sorry for that. It must have been painful.

But...For real....you like the confusion. Anything that hides what the real problem is. You can make it any flavor or any color. Its still there.


Again and last time....You know the answer!

 

[hrhema]

I am amazed that so many people on this board obviously cannot read the Bible for themselves but listens to someone interpret it for them.

Paul made it clear that a person could get a divorce when infidelity was involved or if a non believer walked out on a believer. Suprise, Suprise. He said they could REMARRY.

It is amazing that there are individuals who think they can supersede the Apostles.

Has anyone ever really studied to see why Jesus said what he said about the hardness of their hearts? He said this because under the law the man really did not even have to have a good reason to divorce his wife. The women had no recourse. This was the way society had been for years. Now Jesus was saying something totally different.

People will take one scripture and build a whole doctrine on it just like the Pharisees did and just like the Pharisees they use this doctrine or belief to beat people up with it. This is exactly why Jesus despised them. He told them he would rather see some mercy and justice instead of tithes and cumin being given.

As far as what Sherrie said if I had children I would not allow her to teach them her unbiblical doctrine and her bad attitude. I would not want them to play with her children either. I believe she needs to learn mercy and justice and she needs to pull the beam out of her eye before she tries to remove the speck out of anyone elses eyes. What did Jesus tell those who wanted to stone the woman caught in Adultery. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. There sure has been a lot of stone casting on this thread.

I think a lot of people forget that King David committed Adultery and even murdered somone but did God remove him from being King. NO! Yes he paid the consequences but God called him a man after his own heart way after these sins were committed and not only that David prophesied some great messianic prophecies way after he sinned.
Also why was Bathsheba not stoned to death and even though the first child died in judgement why did God turn right around a bless their union by giving them Solomon? The answer is he is a forgiving and merciful God.

Peoples dogmatic ideas should never hinder anyone from doing what God has called them to do.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Evan:

Ok, ok here it is. My spouse of 23 years ago was unfaithful not once but twice. She left to live with someone else and filed for divorce. After two years of trying to stop it, I gave up and let her have her way. I moved away. Is she remarried? Don't know! 4 years after the divorce and 3 years before I was saved, I remarried which is the wife I am with who is also saved. One wife. I believe so folks. Evan

Yes, you are the husband of one wife. Let's look to our Schoolmaster, the Law, for instruction here.

(I'm at work, so I don't have a lot of time to post. I'm just going to blurt it out and answer the inevitable objections later.)

Adulterers were to be stoned. Your wife's adultery in essence renders her dead to the covenant. You are no longer in bondage and are free to remarry. This would be true whether or not you were saved.

I fail to see the difficulty here.

 

[hrhema]

I was horrified to read where Justified and Sherrie would even accuse someone of committing Adultery in the first place and more so when they have no Biblical stand to back up what they are saying.

It does not matter if the woman divorced the man. If she was being unfaithful she was committing Adultery. HE had a biblical right to remarry per Christ and per Paul. It does not matter what Justified or Sherrie says or thinks they have no scriptural authority over Christ or Paul.