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Evangelist Teen Ministry Question of Doctrine
- Thread starter Evan
- Start date
TheOliveBranch
New Member
cojosh,
He's not just heading up the ministry. He preaches , too. We told him to do what he wants. There are plenty of "to the left" church's that will accept him. I think this thread is just going around again. We gave Scripture to back up our stand. Evan doesn't care what we think. He's doing what he believes. We believe there are consequences to sins prior to salvation. Evan doesn't. He has "liberty". Too bad for the women that had botched abortions prior to salvation and now cannot have the children they really want. Consequences are not fair. But God didn't put fair in the Bible.
He's not just heading up the ministry. He preaches , too. We told him to do what he wants. There are plenty of "to the left" church's that will accept him. I think this thread is just going around again. We gave Scripture to back up our stand. Evan doesn't care what we think. He's doing what he believes. We believe there are consequences to sins prior to salvation. Evan doesn't. He has "liberty". Too bad for the women that had botched abortions prior to salvation and now cannot have the children they really want. Consequences are not fair. But God didn't put fair in the Bible.
Yep. He's doing what Jesus said he could do. Jesus said that adultery was a valid reason to dissolve a marriage. And if a divorce is valid, then remarriage is valid. Evan needs to believe Jesus over anyone else's opinion -- especially since Jesus called him to minister.
He did put grace in the Bible. If grace can be given, then Christians ought to be about being ministers of grace instead of condemnation.
Olive Branch: I think there has been plenty of people that have proven your harsh stance to be unwarranted but just like the Pharisees of Jesus day you refuse to budge. We know exactly what Jesus said in Matthew. He did give a person the right to remarry and this is in all translations.
Simply put Evan - yes you can preach - to teens
and such
BUT No you cannot become a pastor/elder/deacon; because of your sin of remarrying while divorced wife is still alive
as to you hrhema - divorce is a stench unto God; as much as any sin.
Evan in his state of sin remarried, I dont blame him, not his fault; hes a guy - guys are extremely dumb in this regards. I should know.
However there is a penalty to be paid because of it. For now it is the reduction of his permitted roles within the church; there could be others. I dont know Im not Evan.
BUT God may use him in a pastoral role; God may reclaim from the pile of divorcees/ers, and raise him up to feed and protect the flock, in a larger way then he is currently doing so.
So hrhema *shhhhhhh*
Again with the summary
teens yes - within a context of a church under the authority of a preacher and such, yes outside the church, with the purpose of bringing them into the church to be equipped by other people then you. Notice I used equipped not discipled
and such
BUT No you cannot become a pastor/elder/deacon; because of your sin of remarrying while divorced wife is still alive
as to you hrhema - divorce is a stench unto God; as much as any sin.
Evan in his state of sin remarried, I dont blame him, not his fault; hes a guy - guys are extremely dumb in this regards. I should know.
However there is a penalty to be paid because of it. For now it is the reduction of his permitted roles within the church; there could be others. I dont know Im not Evan.
BUT God may use him in a pastoral role; God may reclaim from the pile of divorcees/ers, and raise him up to feed and protect the flock, in a larger way then he is currently doing so.
So hrhema *shhhhhhh*
Again with the summary
teens yes - within a context of a church under the authority of a preacher and such, yes outside the church, with the purpose of bringing them into the church to be equipped by other people then you. Notice I used equipped not discipled
I am not shhhhhng for anyone.
Evan, you did not sin. JEsus said you did not and so did Paul. All these other people who tells you you did are scripturally illiterate just like the preachers they have sat under.
I am not trying to be harsh but I came from a very strict church background and I know a lot of things people believe come from misinterpretations of preachers.
You can pastor or do what God leads you to do.
God forgave all your past sins and it is as your past never happened. Also since you did not sin or violate the word by remarrying contrary to what a few people try to shove down your throat
you have nothing to be ashamed of.
Every commentary I have read about the scripture in Matthew concurs that Jesus said a person can remarry if the spouse committed adultery. So only a few narrow minded bigoted people who believe they know scripture when they do not think otherwise.
Evan, you did not sin. JEsus said you did not and so did Paul. All these other people who tells you you did are scripturally illiterate just like the preachers they have sat under.
I am not trying to be harsh but I came from a very strict church background and I know a lot of things people believe come from misinterpretations of preachers.
You can pastor or do what God leads you to do.
God forgave all your past sins and it is as your past never happened. Also since you did not sin or violate the word by remarrying contrary to what a few people try to shove down your throat
you have nothing to be ashamed of.
Every commentary I have read about the scripture in Matthew concurs that Jesus said a person can remarry if the spouse committed adultery. So only a few narrow minded bigoted people who believe they know scripture when they do not think otherwise.
BAPTIST BOARD POSTING RULES:
2. Show grace to the other posters. When someone disagrees with you, discuss it; but be slow to offend, and eager to get into the Word and find the answers. Remember, when discussing passionate issues, it is easy to go too far and offend. Further, if we are "earnestly contending for the faith" it would be unrealistic not to expect at times to be misunderstood or even ridiculed. But please note that your words can sometimes be harsh if used in the wrong way. The anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
3. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The board has an edit button enabled. We encourage you to use it and edit your own words. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with potentially offensive situations. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging.
Clint Kritzer
Moderator
2. Show grace to the other posters. When someone disagrees with you, discuss it; but be slow to offend, and eager to get into the Word and find the answers. Remember, when discussing passionate issues, it is easy to go too far and offend. Further, if we are "earnestly contending for the faith" it would be unrealistic not to expect at times to be misunderstood or even ridiculed. But please note that your words can sometimes be harsh if used in the wrong way. The anger of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
3. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The board has an edit button enabled. We encourage you to use it and edit your own words. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with potentially offensive situations. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging.
Clint Kritzer
Moderator
With all due respect, where has the moderation been for those who have been attacking post-it and Joshua, calling them "children of the devil" and such? I've seen little evidence that these rules are being enforced uniformly.
I hope we can all improve in this regard.
[ August 21, 2002, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Barnabas ]
I hope we can all improve in this regard.
[ August 21, 2002, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Barnabas ]
Baptist Believer,
You are right that we should enforce these rules uniformly. Please PM the moderators of the forums in which the offenses are. We often miss some, and our own biases can affect our judgment despite our best efforts to the contrary. Keep us sharp!
Aaron
[ August 21, 2002, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Barnabas ]
You are right that we should enforce these rules uniformly. Please PM the moderators of the forums in which the offenses are. We often miss some, and our own biases can affect our judgment despite our best efforts to the contrary. Keep us sharp!
Aaron
[ August 21, 2002, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Barnabas ]
In all honesty, I am hoping that the membership of this board can move to a point where people will understand how widespread the reading of this forum is. I have not edited any post in this thread nor the others. I simply posted the rules in order to remind everyone of their agreement when joining the site. My primary concern is that this discussion has moved away from the use of Scripture and has instead turned to emotional outburst.
The intention of this board is to allow all Baptists to have a voice and a sounding board for their opinions. However, because this is a Christian board I would also like to see the differences in doctrine settled in a Christian way with a mutual respect for the concept cherished by Baptist called soul liberty.
My previous post was not directed merely at this thread. It has come about in a cumulative manner. This board is more than a debate forum, it is also a Christian witness. What outsiders see of the individuals posting here leaves a taste in their mouth, be it good or bad.
I do not believe in censorship but am a firm supporter of Christian grace and charity. Again, my post is merely a reminder. As our friend the Squire often puts it, "I'm trying to shed more light than heat."
[ August 21, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
The intention of this board is to allow all Baptists to have a voice and a sounding board for their opinions. However, because this is a Christian board I would also like to see the differences in doctrine settled in a Christian way with a mutual respect for the concept cherished by Baptist called soul liberty.
My previous post was not directed merely at this thread. It has come about in a cumulative manner. This board is more than a debate forum, it is also a Christian witness. What outsiders see of the individuals posting here leaves a taste in their mouth, be it good or bad.
I do not believe in censorship but am a firm supporter of Christian grace and charity. Again, my post is merely a reminder. As our friend the Squire often puts it, "I'm trying to shed more light than heat."
[ August 21, 2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
Hrhema
I have a whole bag of *sssshhhhhh*'s for you
Divorce is not part of the original divine plan
I will agree ONLY that divorce due to adultery/fornication is allowable, but I will NOT agree that remarriage while the spouse is alive is godly.
The whole point of marriage is not procreation/fornication - its the total union into one entity of two souls for the betterment of each other and the world around them. And if we make wrong choices we have to face the consequences of those choices. If we sin we are punished; we get to avoid Hell only because Jesus took that penalty upon Himself.
Evan hopefully chose his ex-wife, and vice versa.
God through His love even for His fallen children - bonded them together despite their not having the foundation of Christ. That's why some people are so plain 'special'
in that they insist on not getting married until God brings that single specific person, with whom they'll never fight and be soulmates forever without a single scrap of work.
I have a whole bag of *sssshhhhhh*'s for you
Divorce is not part of the original divine plan
I will agree ONLY that divorce due to adultery/fornication is allowable, but I will NOT agree that remarriage while the spouse is alive is godly.
The whole point of marriage is not procreation/fornication - its the total union into one entity of two souls for the betterment of each other and the world around them. And if we make wrong choices we have to face the consequences of those choices. If we sin we are punished; we get to avoid Hell only because Jesus took that penalty upon Himself.
Evan hopefully chose his ex-wife, and vice versa.
God through His love even for His fallen children - bonded them together despite their not having the foundation of Christ. That's why some people are so plain 'special'
in that they insist on not getting married until God brings that single specific person, with whom they'll never fight and be soulmates forever without a single scrap of work.MOderator: I did not mean to be harsh in my words but I think it is rude for any poster to tell another to be quiet whether it is by using the terms shhhhhhhhhhhh or what. I don't think this individual understands that this is rude because even after your post he did it again.
Disagreeing is one thing but being rude is another and I said what I said to make a point that it does not feel good to be treated rude.
Disagreeing is one thing but being rude is another and I said what I said to make a point that it does not feel good to be treated rude.
Point well taken, hrhema, and I recognize the humility in your post. However, I did not aim my post at anyone in particular, rather just made a broad statement. It is not my intention to single anyone out but rather to remind everyone of our roles as Christians in this community. Believe me, I have experienced what at first appeared to me to be righteous indignation on this site but upon review was actually just poor witness.
I try to sit on the sidelines during most of these debates unless I have some searing spotlight of truth to shine on a subject and only become proactive when absolutely necessary.
Indeed, thank you for your acknowledgement rather than just taking a defensive position.
May God bless you, sir
- Clint
[ August 21, 2002, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
I try to sit on the sidelines during most of these debates unless I have some searing spotlight of truth to shine on a subject and only become proactive when absolutely necessary.
Indeed, thank you for your acknowledgement rather than just taking a defensive position.
May God bless you, sir
- Clint
[ August 21, 2002, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
TheOliveBranch
New Member
Sularis,
I see that the point you are trying to make is that people often don't want to accept the fact that they have made wrong choices. I'd like to add that when we make a wrong choice and are living the consequences, that God does give us the ability to accept this as our choice and continue on for Him.
I am troubled by the posts that have been written with speculation and phrases that state what the Bible says, without references, and the fact that what God originally intended is brushed aside as if it doesn't even exist.
I've been told that I'm harsh, a Pharissee, a legalist, dogmatic, close-minded, foolish, I can't read the Bible for myself, and a hardliner just for telling about my type of Baptist Church and that Evan wouldn't be accepted there. Those who are somwhat in agreement have been called these things and more. I did not tell him to quit and I did not say that other churches that accept him there couldn't do that. I did tell him that he should talk to the Pastors of the churches he wishes to go to so as not to hide something that may be considered unbiblical by some. I can claim Matthew 5:11 and still be calm when stating my stand. I am not offended by these names, because I know what I believe and God has given me the ability to see, because I desire to follow Him as closely as I can, even when it hurts, or when I don't want it to be that way. Human reasoning is so finite. God is beyond our understanding, Rom 11:33-36.
[ August 21, 2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: TheOliveBranch ]
I see that the point you are trying to make is that people often don't want to accept the fact that they have made wrong choices. I'd like to add that when we make a wrong choice and are living the consequences, that God does give us the ability to accept this as our choice and continue on for Him.
I am troubled by the posts that have been written with speculation and phrases that state what the Bible says, without references, and the fact that what God originally intended is brushed aside as if it doesn't even exist.
I've been told that I'm harsh, a Pharissee, a legalist, dogmatic, close-minded, foolish, I can't read the Bible for myself, and a hardliner just for telling about my type of Baptist Church and that Evan wouldn't be accepted there. Those who are somwhat in agreement have been called these things and more. I did not tell him to quit and I did not say that other churches that accept him there couldn't do that. I did tell him that he should talk to the Pastors of the churches he wishes to go to so as not to hide something that may be considered unbiblical by some. I can claim Matthew 5:11 and still be calm when stating my stand. I am not offended by these names, because I know what I believe and God has given me the ability to see, because I desire to follow Him as closely as I can, even when it hurts, or when I don't want it to be that way. Human reasoning is so finite. God is beyond our understanding, Rom 11:33-36.
[ August 21, 2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: TheOliveBranch ]
It's amazing how the liberals will porposely forget about the Holiness and Righteousness of God, and say that Jesus did away with all of that, just so they can do that which is right in their own eyes!
"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version
"It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version
Thank you Clint for being the moderator. To everyone, I to think we need to refrain from calling each other things that are not Godly or what God would like for us to say to each should he be here sitting next to us during the conversation. This is a "hot issue" as Clint elude too. It was mean't for conversation and scripture discussion. I wanted to see the many different opinions and I appreciate as an evangelist the different opinions and scripture references. I could bring more scripture into play, plus all of my educational background, but it would not serve any purpose. We are still Brothers and Sisters in the Lord. Let's not lose the focus of that within our conversation. Just so you know, we are not supported by any organization or church. We are supported by the faithful giving of God's people (known as love offerings) when we have the ministry at a church. I will never attempt to hold a Pastor's position, but I know that God has called me to a work and the work must go on. You see, we can affect a whole generation when you see Teens come to Christ. If Christ didn't want me to do the work, more doors would be closed, but just the opposite is true. Pastor's know of my position concerning this entire matter before I come with the ministry, because of lot of it occurs because of word of mouth about what an "excellent" ministry it is and because of the desire to see Teenagers changed for Jesus Christ which opens doors then to homes of Moms and Dads. Be in prayer, however, as I believe the Lord is leading us to another State because of a job opportunity which means replanting God's work from that location. Just pray for the Lord's leading in this opportunity. Thanks
"And I tell you this, a man who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery-unless his wife has been unfaithful. matthew 19:9 NLT
"And I say to you whoever divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another commits adultery>" NKJV
"I say to you: whoever dimisses (repudiates, divorces) his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery." Amplified Version.
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." NIV
"And I say unto you , Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commiteth adultery>" KJV
Here is four Bible translations that all say the same thing. All translating the word of the Lord God Jesus who said whoever puts away his wife unless it is for sexual sins and marries another commits adultery. This is the stipulation Jesus gave for remarriage.
Paul gave a different stipulation and that is if an unbelieving spouse departs a believer. If you cannot accept Jesus' words and Paul's words then I don't know who you will believe.
The Great I am. The one who instituted marriage in the first place gave this one stipulation and nothing anyone on this post can change that. You can declare whatever you want to but God's word supersedes mans.
"And I say to you whoever divorces his wife except for sexual immorality and marries another commits adultery>" NKJV
"I say to you: whoever dimisses (repudiates, divorces) his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another commits adultery." Amplified Version.
"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." NIV
"And I say unto you , Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commiteth adultery>" KJV
Here is four Bible translations that all say the same thing. All translating the word of the Lord God Jesus who said whoever puts away his wife unless it is for sexual sins and marries another commits adultery. This is the stipulation Jesus gave for remarriage.
Paul gave a different stipulation and that is if an unbelieving spouse departs a believer. If you cannot accept Jesus' words and Paul's words then I don't know who you will believe.
The Great I am. The one who instituted marriage in the first place gave this one stipulation and nothing anyone on this post can change that. You can declare whatever you want to but God's word supersedes mans.
Thank you for your kind response. I did try to PM one of the other moderators regarding the "Virgin Birth" thread, but their box was full. The other moderator has not responded in any way I can discern. It has been about 36 hours since my message, so I don't know if anything will happen or not. Certainly the unwarranted accusations aren't going away.