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Eve, how did she help?
- Thread starter Crabtownboy
- Start date
webdog said:
I disagree completely. If God is the author of sin, He would be no different than satan. In fact, they would be partners. That goes against the very nature of God...a God who DESPISES sin.
I think you need to rethink this position, Joe.
No, your jumping to conclusions which doesn't make sense to me. It certainly doesn't mean he is partners with Satan, and I doubt you will find any Christian who beleives this.
How can a perfect God create anything less than what He deems "good"? I'm not even talking about after that "exact moment" (even though I believe everything He created was finished at that time), but even after that? Satan already fell at that point. Sin existed. It just didn't exist on earth yet.Joe said:
Yes, sin didn't exist on earth yet. That is why it was good to him. Nothing bad had happened yet on earth. At that moment, the tree of life was good. Nothing bad resulted from it's presence or it's power.
Example:
If I grow marijuana, it's just a plant growing in my backyard.
I I grow marijuana, harvest it and sell it to someone, and they get stoned with it, it is sin
This person could not sin without my effort to assist him in this sin. So he is responsible for his choices, yet I am also responsible as he couldn't have gotten high and committed this sin without my assistance.
The evil is in my yard (hypothetical) what is derived from the evil I chose to grow in my yard is sin yet I chose to grow it and let sin loose into the world, via the drug marijuana.
That's my point. We are responsible for what we do in a sense, yet we also need to be fair and weigh the conditions which caused the sin. The conditions and circumstances surrounding the sin are weighed to determine responsibility.
Here is an example of a story from another thread. Man shoots wife's lover, yet she is sent to prison for it. He committed the grevious sin, yet the conditions which steered him into this sin were weighed out thus he is not totally responsible. Without his wife crying rape, the sin wouldn't have been committed, we assume.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=49511
Example:
If I grow marijuana, it's just a plant growing in my backyard.
I I grow marijuana, harvest it and sell it to someone, and they get stoned with it, it is sin
This person could not sin without my effort to assist him in this sin. So he is responsible for his choices, yet I am also responsible as he couldn't have gotten high and committed this sin without my assistance.
The evil is in my yard (hypothetical) what is derived from the evil I chose to grow in my yard is sin yet I chose to grow it and let sin loose into the world, via the drug marijuana.
That's my point. We are responsible for what we do in a sense, yet we also need to be fair and weigh the conditions which caused the sin. The conditions and circumstances surrounding the sin are weighed to determine responsibility.
Here is an example of a story from another thread. Man shoots wife's lover, yet she is sent to prison for it. He committed the grevious sin, yet the conditions which steered him into this sin were weighed out thus he is not totally responsible. Without his wife crying rape, the sin wouldn't have been committed, we assume.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=49511
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Joe, sin is NEVER good to God. That is heresy. Sin is what His Son died to atone for.
Both illegal in my state. Both would be sin.
There is no "to a sense". We are responsible...wholly. If by fair you mean we can pin it back on God, I'm not brave enough to do such a thing. Seriously Joe, please rethink and pray over what you believe. This view is so far to the left.
The man didn't commit a sin. He thought he was defending his wife from a rapist. Intent determines sin. He did not commit murder.
I think you are meaning to include everything he created in that sentence. This is the verse we are both referring to.webdog said:
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Sin entered the picture AFTER God deemed all of his creation as "good". So he never deemed sin as "good". Nothing evil resulted from the tree's presence or it's power until after he made that statement
LOL Me--->:saint:
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Allan said:
Alright. We may need to disagree
God didn't hold Eve hostange and force the fruit into her mouth. Nor did he forcibly make Adam follow suit. He created Adam with the strong desires for his wife, thus he created Adam to do what he did, stand by his wife. The fruit was not pleasing to Adam's eyes or it would have read that way imo.
He created Eve with a natural desire to view the tree as "pleasing to the eyes" all while knowingly casting the devil down to earth where he is physically near her. Satan was known for his cunning abilities, and God knew his plan to take over the universe thus to utilize these cunning skills on Eve for a reason. It was God's purpose to allow the devil to tempt Eve.
ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Romans 8:26
Eventually, Adam and Eve's descendants would have sinned under those conditions imo.
1. God cast Satan down from heaven to earth Isaiah 14:15
2. The Lord knew Satan was roaming the earth Job 1:6-7
3. God knew Satan wanted control over the universe and it's beings
4. So he knew Satan's plan to deceive Eve while he wandered the earth yet allowed him to do so. He more than allowed him, he Created the situation where you couldn't see any of these beings acting much different than they had. The results aren't too suprising under the circumstances.
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. Ecclesiastes 3:1
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You seem to place way to much wieght behind assumptions and spectulations as a fact - for my taste.Joe said:
For example: please show scripture where God gave Adam a "strong desire for his wife" or that God gave Eve "a natural desire to view the tree as "pleasing to the eyes"".
Another thing:
Your #2 is out of context and has absolutely nothing to do with the Gen passages.
Your #4 is pure speculation with no biblical backing to support such a view.
So yes, we will have to agree to disagree.
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Isaiah 45:5-8;18&19Joe said:
5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
18For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
19I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
It all is summed up in this, God has saw fit to take on the responsibility for evil and sin. He created Lucifer, Adam, Eve, the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the Tree of Life.
Unlike Adam who did not take the responsibility for his wife but reacted according to his flesh. God reacted according to His Spiritual nature and love toward man and accepts the responsibility for the direction His creation has taken. Even to the very death of His Son. In the death of His Son all righteousness will be restored not only to man but to all of creation, verses 8,18&19.
Also, all of us must remember that God has His reasons for planting the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That responsibility does rest with Him and we are not to question why.
Isaiah 45:9&10
9Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
God is Sovereign over all. :godisgood:
Palatka51 said:
Let me add this to the above thought. IMHO and that is all that it is MHO, God set this up as a test for Adam to move according to his God Breathed Spirit. Adam did not do so. He failed miserably and thus, from then on, God dwelt with man as clay, dust or flesh. The only persons of flesh that God even acknowledges are those that do His will, ie; Noah, Abraham, et al.
Have you ever wondered why Jesus went into the wilderness to be tempted? This is the same situation with Adam, his time of testing, a test that was of the will of God. Jesus, on the other hand, was not born of flesh. He did not fail in His time of testing. Nor did He fail when it was God's will that He go to the cross and die. Why, His victory was so complete that He overcame the very death that Adam had succumbed to.
:godisgood: :godisgood: :godisgood: :godisgood:
I'll show both.Allan said:
God gave him strong desires for his wife Eve as a woman. This is natural, this is what US men feel when Woman are around. He probably wasn't struggling with opposite gender attraction regarding sexual desires, most men don't have that issue. Proof? Read Song of Solomon.
And Yes, the tree was pleasing to Eve's eyes
Gen 3: 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
#2 To show that God knew Satan was roaming the Earth does apply
#4 is one logical conclusion from all of the evidence weighed. You may come to a different logical conclusion.
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Ok, I see I needed to be a little more specific. I do not disagree that men have an affinity toward their wives nor that woman would like beautiful things. What I was contending and asking for proof of was your contention that these were given by God for the purpose of Adam and Eve falling into sin.Joe said:
No #2 does not apply because Satan wasn't 'roaming' the earth. There was no need to since the only people on the planet were in the garden and Satan knew this. If you read Job you will that is the reason for Satan's 'roaming' because God ask Satan if he has considered His servant Job.
As I said, we will agree to disagree.
Oh, Ok. I didn't understand what you meant.Allan said:
I didn't say specifically these things were given by God for the exact purpose of Adam and Eve falling into sin. I did say, imo, eventually Adam and Eve or their decendants would have sinned due to the circumstances and situations placed before them.
In order to elaborate further, I would be repeating myself so maybe you can go back and read my posts if you wish.
Ok
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donnA said:
Gen 3: 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
Here is an answer to one of your questions