even those who refuse to work

[Robert Snow]

Yes, I was certainly lazy at that point in my life. I was not saved, a drug addict, an alcoholic, and engaged in many other sinful activities. Just because one was was a lazy bum does that mean I can't change my life and then point out other lazy bums? It would seem that, since I was once a lazy bum, that I'm in the unique position to be able to more easily spot lazy bums!

I'm pretty good at pointing out people who, although once had a severe problem and found deliverance, are now very judgmental toward those they disagree with.

Evidently something many posts ago really upset you toward me and consequently me towards you. I know we disagree on many things, especially political things, but if you tell me what I did to cause this animosity I will try and change it. There is no reason for us to continue this feud. We can agree sometimes, and disagree agreeable. Just let me know what I did to offend you.

 

[matt wade]

So are you saying that working on Sundays is o.k. but helping poor kids eat (no matter the circumstances) and joining a labor union are wrong ?

Nope..never said that helping poor kids eat was wrong. I said enabling their father was wrong. I wouldn't punish the kids.

I also didn't say that joining a labor union was wrong, just that I didn't agree with them, though that most union members were lazy, and that I personally won't join one.

Come back when you decide not to spin my words into something they aren't.

 

[matt wade]

I'm pretty good at pointing out people who, although once had a severe problem and found deliverance, are now very judgmental toward those they disagree with.

Evidently something many posts ago really upset you toward me and consequently me towards you. I know we disagree on many things, especially political things, but if you tell me what I did to cause this animosity I will try and change it. There is no reason for us to continue this feud. We can agree sometimes, and disagree agreeable. Just let me know what I did to offend you.

I don't have a personal problem with you. I don't like most of your political views and I don't like your deception of multiple aliases. If you'll admit to your multiple aliases, I'll stop bringing it up. Deal?

 

[targus]

The guys who stand at freeway entrances with signs . . . would any one of you hire them? Does the ability to work include the ability to be hired?

It depends...

Are they unionized? :laugh:

 

[Salty]

.... but helping poor kids eat (no matter the circumstances) ... are wrong ?

In extreme circumstances, I would not ever give money to a family who are short on groceries. I would invite them to my home for a good meal, I might even take them shopping for good food (as opposed to chips, soda, candy ect) but they would have to follow my rules. This would include learning how to budget - I would need to see all income and outgo, Mrs. Salty would help Mrs Jones plan and prepare meals, how to use coupons, use leftovers, and ect.
If the parents, refused, then that could be considered child abuse, and it may necessity calling child services.

Today's key word: RESPONSIBILITY

 

[StefanM]

In extreme circumstances, I would not ever give money to a family who are short on groceries. I would invite them to my home for a good meal, I might even take them shopping for good food (as opposed to chips, soda, candy ect) but they would have to follow my rules. This would include learning how to budget - I would need to see all income and outgo, Mrs. Salty would help Mrs Jones plan and prepare meals, how to use coupons, use leftovers, and ect.
If the parents, refused, then that could be considered child abuse, and it may necessity calling child services.

Today's key word: RESPONSIBILITY

Today's other key phrase: Control obsession

I understand not handing out money, but why be so controlling?

You can take measures to ensure that the money will not be wasted without requiring more information from them than the IRS does.

It would not be considered child abuse to refuse to completely surrender every bit of personal information for a little help with groceries.

 

[Robert Snow]

I don't have a personal problem with you. I don't like most of your political views and I don't like your deception of multiple aliases. If you'll admit to your multiple aliases, I'll stop bringing it up. Deal?

Well, I tried to make peace, but you are not interested. As far as proving anything to you, I don't feel obligated, you should not worry about what you think is other's dishonesty, and concern yourself with youself.

I guess it's business as usual with you.

 

[Salty]

Today's other key phrase: Control obsession

I understand not handing out money, but why be so controlling?

You can take measures to ensure that the money will not be wasted without requiring more information from them than the IRS does.

It would not be considered child abuse to refuse to completely surrender every bit of personal information for a little help with groceries.

If the individual needs (wants) money, they are the one that has an obsession - an obsession of spending money on wants - rather than needs.

If someone does not want solid assistance, there are plenty of other places they can go to get a "quick fix" for their addiction. But in order to properly help someone, I need to see the entire picture, not the one-sided story they are likely to present to me.

Mind you, this is not the action for everyone, for example, a faithful member of your church has lost his job without notice - or a catastrophe such as a fire or some other unforeseen example.
The point is when folks know there is a hand out, they are very likely to take advantage.
Tell you what, send me your phone # and when someone is not willing to do what I ask, they can call you and move in with your family. :saint:

Salty

 

[rbell]

I have a friend whose Father would never work. Not couldn't , wouldn't.

Thanks God my parents taught us kids that it did not matter. They needed our help, and we gave it to them.

Judge not, only take care of the needs that the Lord places in front of you.

Call it "social gospel" if you will, Momma and Daddy called it "doin' what baptized folks do".

So...you choose to ignore the Scripture's admonition about "if a man won't work...neither let him eat"?

Do you work on Sunday ?

I'm sorry, I seem to be having trouble finding that scripture...

 

[saturneptune]

And you call others lazy?

I don't mind helping those who cannot work, but to give an able-bodied man a handout because he will not work is something I will not do.

It's amazing these people almost always have a cigarette in their mouths. At $4.00 to $7.00 a pack, I wonder how they afford it!

You switch to OP's (other people's)

 

[Revmitchell]

I deal with the homeless and hungry every day. There are the single men (Navajo's) who are drunks and walk into the church looking for something to eat. The church keep ready made sandwiches, chips, and other snacks available. I also have a discretion cash fund ready. It is heart breaking to have a man standing in your face and telling you he is hungry. At the same time it is a fact that any food you give him now will enable him to drink later.

What I have done is to insist that they work around the church for a bit then I will provide them a meal. Often this is turned down and they will just walk away mad.

When parents are not taking care of business the children will suffer in many ways. The difficulty is that providing groceries to the home will work to see that the children are fed but will at the same time enable what ever poor behavior the parents are engaged in.

So those who want to see the truly needy get assistance are caught between a rock and a hard place. And of course the left uses these needs to expand government and decrease American freedom. Instead of getting out in the community and working to find local non governmental solutions.

Quite frankly the solutions of the left are born out of laziness and anti-intellectualism. Laziness because if they use the force of the government then they do not have to do the leg work of getting out in the community and find local non governmental solutions. Anti-intellectualism because passing laws takes no real thought.

 

[Cutter]

When you give an able bodied man that won't work a handout, you are aiding and abetting his sinful, irresponsible nature.

 

[annsni]

RevMitchell - that's great that you keep sandwiches and such ready for someone to do a little work and get a meal. It's a shame that some won't bother to work.

I agree that if someone won't work, they don't get to eat and it IS hard to figure out how to make sure the children don't suffer while trying to teach the parents about responsibility. Sometimes we need to just decide that the kids are more important than the person's irresponsibility and that some day, God will hold them accountable in some form or fashion whether in this world or the next but WE will be held responsible for not taking care of the "least of these".

 

[StefanM]

RevMitchell - that's great that you keep sandwiches and such ready for someone to do a little work and get a meal. It's a shame that some won't bother to work.

I agree that if someone won't work, they don't get to eat and it IS hard to figure out how to make sure the children don't suffer while trying to teach the parents about responsibility. Sometimes we need to just decide that the kids are more important than the person's irresponsibility and that some day, God will hold them accountable in some form or fashion whether in this world or the next but WE will be held responsible for not taking care of the "least of these".

Well said, annsni.

 

[Revmitchell]

RevMitchell - that's great that you keep sandwiches and such ready for someone to do a little work and get a meal. It's a shame that some won't bother to work.

I agree that if someone won't work, they don't get to eat and it IS hard to figure out how to make sure the children don't suffer while trying to teach the parents about responsibility. Sometimes we need to just decide that the kids are more important than the person's irresponsibility and that some day, God will hold them accountable in some form or fashion whether in this world or the next but WE will be held responsible for not taking care of the "least of these".

The problem is it becomes a long term issue. Personally if it is apparent the the parents are neglectful then the kids most likely need to be removed and the parents left to straighten heir act up. But what is not acceptable is that things just remain the same and the community is left to ignore the abuse and supply groceries unending.

 

[annsni]

The problem is it becomes a long term issue. Personally if it is apparent the the parents are neglectful then the kids most likely need to be removed and the parents left to straighten heir act up. But what is not acceptable is that things just remain the same and the community is left to ignore the abuse and supply groceries unending.

Very true. This is where sometimes a church just needs to sit back and not help anymore I'd guess. I thank God for our missions pastor who seems to have a very discerning spirit and has helped many - and turned away many too. I think he's in contact with other churches now to form a network to see who's working the churches and who is legitimately in need. It's been very helpful.

 

[Revmitchell]

Very true. This is where sometimes a church just needs to sit back and not help anymore I'd guess. I thank God for our missions pastor who seems to have a very discerning spirit and has helped many - and turned away many too. I think he's in contact with other churches now to form a network to see who's working the churches and who is legitimately in need. It's been very helpful.

In the area where I Pastored my first church the pastors created a Ministerial Association. Out of that was created a help center for people in need. All the churches would send their budgeted benevolence to the help center. This way those who were asking would always have to see the same people and could not potentially make the rounds and work the churches.

It hasn't been done here where I currently am but 5 pastors are talking about it. The good thing here is there already is a help center we could just support. There is more need here per capita then most places largely because of the depressed economic conditions and we are mostly dealing with the Navajo.

Out here in NM the gambling and alcohol destroys families as there are casinos everywhere. We have had 5 teen suicides in two months. The possible silver lining is that the community is now scared, even irresponsible parents, and they are all looking for something to fix their lives. My office has been busy over the last three weeks and I have had opportunity to reach out in a big way.

 

[Bob Alkire]

There is more need here per capita then most places largely because of the depressed economic conditions and we are mostly dealing with the Navajo.

I know in the mid and late 60's, it was as bad as any where I've ever been. One morning around 2 AM I like to run int a drunk driving a hay baler going down the middle of US 666 just outside of Shiprock. A group of us were working the 4 corners area and down to Gallup and the Laguna Reservation, trying to get the Gospel out. The economic condition was depressed then and drink was flowing greatly.

Out here in NM the gambling and alcohol destroys families as there are casinos everywhere. We have had 5 teen suicides in two months. The possible silver lining is that the community is now scared, even irresponsible parents, and they are all looking for something to fix their lives. My office has been busy over the last three weeks and I have had opportunity to reach out in a big way.

I'll be praying for the work you are in brother, because it sounds so much like when I was out there 40 + years ago.

Side note, being out there and a couple other like area and some work in some inner cities change my view on government aid for life. When one has nothing much to do to keep a live, so many drink, family, house, farm and so on seem not to mean the same. Self respect seem to be missing in so many of these type of places.

I've seen many of these folks get saved and all changes, but then many want to get their families out of there so their children don't see and go through what they did.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'll be praying for the work you are in brother,

That means more to me than anything else.