christiang
Member
If you see a person that is starving on the street, to where you can see his ribcage, and he asks you for money for food, are you acting in love if you give him nothing?
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Every Believer Must Do Good Works and Proclaim the Gospel, Some Are Called to Teach
- Thread starter christiang
- Start date
If you see a person that is starving on the street, to where you can see his ribcage, and he asks you for money for food, are you acting in love if you give him nothing?
Well, first off, you may want to be very careful with the dance you are dancing here because it sounds very much like you are questioning my salvation.
So your interpretation of this passage is that it is saying to earn your salvation - to work to earn it. But that is not at all what the passage is saying because we know that it is GOD who works IN us and so we work that OUT - in other words, we act on our state of salvation and not that our state of salvation is based on our actions. I don't get why you don't understand this. If we earn our salvation based on our works, it is a wage. Salvation is not owed to us nor do we earn it. Scripture is very clear about that.
You seem to be so focused on the hungry. You say you don't feed everyone in the world but why not? If you know there are people in this world who are hungry (and we know they are) and you are not acting on it, according to you, you are not saved. It is not just the guy on the street corner but the children in Syria as well. You are in sin if you do not feed them according to your theology.
christiang
Member
Salvation is never earned, because salvation comes by predestination of God, before any works are done. You confuse the election of God that comes before anyone does any works to mean that we don't have to do works, and have subsequently nullified your own faith because you believe works are optional, when in fact, they are obligatory, for works are part of the calling of what we are to do, for after coming to the belief, and after coming to repentance.... instead of yielding evil works that bring death, we are commanded to yield good works that bring life. It's actually pretty simple, believe, and do good works unto others. But oyyyyy, it is sooooo difficult for many to reach understanding of this, because they don't want to! They don't want to give to the homeless man on the street! They don't want to help someone in need! Just like the Pharisees, they are stuck in their religious ways, yet they neglect the important matters of the gospel, "mercy not sacrifice", meaning mercy and kindness unto others, the poor.
I've already explained that we are not called to feed every single hungry person in the world, for not even Jesus Christ did this, we are called to feed those who God puts before us. Again, you are trying to find loopholes to discredit the truth that we must do good works, by trying to make an unrealistic argument that one man should try to feed every single person in the world! Hmmmm, maybe I should grow some crops on the Moon, and send them to earth for everyone? Seems as realistic as your assertion.
When I fear my faith will fail, Christ will hold me fast;
When the tempter would prevail, He will hold me fast.
I could never keep my hold through life's fearful path;
For my love is often cold; He must hold me fast.
He will hold me fast, He will hold me fast;
For my Saviour loves me so, He will hold me fast.
Those He saves are His delight, Christ will hold me fast;
Precious in his holy sight, He will hold me fast.
He'll not let my soul be lost; His promises shall last;
Bought by Him at such a cost, He will hold me fast.
For my life He bled and died, Christ will hold me fast;
Justice has been satisfied; He will hold me fast.
Raised with Him to endless life, He will hold me fast
'Till our faith is turned to sight, When He comes at last!
Read more: Keith & Kristyn Getty - He Will Hold Me Fast Lyrics | MetroLyrics
When the tempter would prevail, He will hold me fast.
I could never keep my hold through life's fearful path;
For my love is often cold; He must hold me fast.
He will hold me fast, He will hold me fast;
For my Saviour loves me so, He will hold me fast.
Those He saves are His delight, Christ will hold me fast;
Precious in his holy sight, He will hold me fast.
He'll not let my soul be lost; His promises shall last;
Bought by Him at such a cost, He will hold me fast.
For my life He bled and died, Christ will hold me fast;
Justice has been satisfied; He will hold me fast.
Raised with Him to endless life, He will hold me fast
'Till our faith is turned to sight, When He comes at last!
Read more: Keith & Kristyn Getty - He Will Hold Me Fast Lyrics | MetroLyrics
Straw-man.
You either DO love God and Love Neighbor, or DON'T.
A person who loves the starving person will do whats best for them.
But I can do whats best for him because i hate homeless folks so he can get off my street, that does not qualify as love of neighbor.
Another can be mentally handicapped, incapable of action and wanting to help the homeless man.
You got a problem with pride Chris, you never thought this through.
The devil is in the details of all the rules you lay out.
christiang
Member
You didn't answer the question. Again, I will ask,
If you see a person that is starving on the street, to where you can see his ribcage, and he asks you for money for food, are you acting in love if you give him nothing? Yes or no will suffice.
I don't have a dime on me. I can still act in Love. Yes. <--there is your yes.
If I had money, I would certainly get him food.
I could give him a million dollars and not love him at all.
What matters is SINCERITY. If is sincerely love them or not.
christiang
Member
That is precisely your problem. You don't actually care if someone is starving. If your own child was starving, wouldn't you go out of your way to make sure she is fed? This same logic applies to people that are starving and homeless around you. There's something innately wrong with you if someone is holding up a sign saying, "I am hungry", and you don't care enough to give them anything. Is it so difficult to drive to the gas station right next to him and buy him some food if you don't have a dime on you? I'm sure you would do that for your own daughter if you had one. This is why I find believers such as yourselves to be despicable, and worse than unbelievers. Because you proclaim to have the love of Christ, yet insinuate that you don't have to give to people that are hungry around us, its complete hypocrisy and contradictory to the gospel of Christ. Shame on you.
No see, you did not read it correctly.
You said:
"are you acting in love if you give him nothing?"
I said Yes. I don't have to give him a anything. I can ask my MAMA to give him something to eat.
I love the guy!
You setup absolute situations that are FALSE.
I could give that guy millions of dollars motivated by pure hatred, that does not qualify.
You mistaken with a person's CAPACITY = righteousness.
1 Corinthians 13
3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
I can give everything away to feed the poor, and it means NOTHING.
"This is why I find believers such as yourselves to be despicable, and worse than unbelievers."
Not everyone is Rich. I don't think of you as despicable.
I think you never put time into thinking about what you are saying. You come at me combatively for the wrong reasons.
The doctrines you are given are not refined. All I see you doing it having to reinvent the wheel because your mistakes are common 1st grader mistakes, from someone who has never thought it through.
PS. since between us I am the evil one, why don't you leave the accusations and insulting to me? Give me my evil tools back, and you can have my kindness and gentleness.
christiang
Member
Love without actions is dead just as belief without actions is dead, hence,
If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth. (1 John 3:17-18 [NIV])
You are trying to separate actions and love because while you may have love, in speech, it is obvious you lack actions of love, by your very own admission.
Your attempt to salvage your theology is pathetic. You already threw out love from your first response.
By my own admission I'm the Devil himself, if it can get you over your high horse of aiming at peoples character, rich boy.
If love itself were devoid of action then it wouldn't be called love at all. We are calling things objectively for what they are. You can't have 2nd class good, if its evil call it what it is.
I am stating that a person must OBJECTIVELY and SINCERLY LOVE because that is the commandment LOVE GOD and LOVE NEIGHBOR.
Now YOU already denied the priority of LOVE, stating salvation was more important, at your very first response.
Your denial of love already kicked you to the curb.
You said:
"Who labors in a field without hope and expectation of a harvest?"
By your admission you are a greedy rich boy, who just expects to earn and get paid salvation.
You said:
"If the yield of the righteous was the same as the yield of the wicked, what purpose would there be in being righteous? "
You treat GOD the way a Gold digger does.
You have no sincerity.
God almighty let his own son die for you! Are you better then Christ!? What sort of YIELD is that?
If someone is about to hit your garbage-can do you throw your son to block the car and protect the trash outside.
Your down there worried about salvation first and what is in it for you.
christiang
Member
Lets cut the crap and beating around the bush, where the insincere one here is you, for all this mumbo jumbo you are regurgitating boils down to you not wanting to give unto others. You are devoid of good works, hence why you twist scriptures to justify your own faith that is dead, because it has no works. I am going to ask you one question,
If you see a person that is starving on the street, to where you can see his ribcage, and he asks you for money for food, is it sin to give him nothing?
Answer yes or no.
But is that an act that must be done to earn salvation? It seems that you are saying "yes". If you do not help the man, you lose your salvation and if you help him, you earn salvation.
christiang
Member
Answer the question first, then I will bother to explain.
So God predestines us to salvation but we can thwart that salvation by not obeying God in every single thing? We would have to be sinless then, wouldn't we? In order to keep our salvation based on our works, we must be perfect, not ever sinning. How do you propose that happens?
christiang
Member
Answer the question, then I will bother to explain,
If you see a person that is starving on the street, to where you can see his ribcage, and he asks you for money for food, is it sin to give him nothing?
NO.
It is not a sin because not everyone has the capacity to give him anything at all. The OTHER starving Guy next to him is not a sinner just because he can't help his buddy out.
That is the point of this verse which you are too afraid to explain:
1 Corinthians 13
3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
This verse explains that You are wrong, completely wrong.
This verse is written exactly to point out your error.
If your willingness to give him something has NO LOVE, it is TRASH.
Yet you can love the person, be incapable of doing anything to help, that is not a sin.
You can have a person who is disabled cannot do anything to help but he loves the person. He is not a sinner for giving nothing.
You can have a billionaire who gives the starving person food, home, money and he has NO LOVE, it is TRASH to GOD.
christiang
Member
Just as I thought, you do not think it is sin, but the scriptures tell us it is sin not to give,
“If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be. Take care lest there be an unworthy thought in your heart and you say, ‘The seventh year, the year of release is near,’ and your eye look grudgingly on your poor brother, and you give him nothing, and he cry to the LORD against you, and you be guilty of sin. (Deuteronomy 15:7-9 [ESV])
The scriptures aren't talking about another homeless man who cannot give, it is talking about people like you who can give, but because you are so despicable you will try to find a loophole, using the example of another homeless man that could not give, because you yourself essentially do not want to give. Again, you are a man with a faith that is dead. A man who's self proclaimed love has no actions. I have nothing further to say to you, I have warned you several times and you refuse to come to understanding, as such, so from here on I am going to block you,
Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. (Titus 3:10 [NIV])
Repent! And begin to do good works worthy of repentance, or you will be thrown into aeonial fire!
“To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Revelation 2:1-5 [ESV])
But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good. (2 Thessalonians 3:13 [NASB])
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.
(Luke 19:8-9 [NIV])
…and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:22 [NLT])
…and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Mark 10:21 [NLT])
…and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. (Luke 12:33 [NIV])
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ (Matthew 25:34-36 [ESV])
does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment… walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord GOD.
(Ezekiel 18:7-9 [ESV])
And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. (Hebrews 13:16 [NIV])
so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, (Colossians 1:10 [NIV])
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. (2 Corinthians 9:8 [ESV])
Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work. (2 Timothy 2:21 [ESV])
that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:17 [ESV])
Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.
(James 3:13 [ESV])
who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. (Titus 2:14 [ESV])
Do everything you can to help Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their way and see that they have everything they need. Our people must learn to devote themselves to doing what is good, in order to provide for urgent needs and not live unproductive lives.
(Titus 3:13-14 [NIV])
Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. (1 Peter 4:10 [NIV])
They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, (1 Timothy 6:18 [ESV])
If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth. (1 John 3:17-18 [NIV])
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, (Titus 3:1 [ESV])
remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thessalonians 1:3 [ESV])
So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. (1 Peter 4:19 [NIV])
Also, the women are to dress themselves in modest clothing, with decency and good sense, not with elaborate hairstyles, gold, pearls, or expensive apparel, but with good works, as is proper for women who affirm that they worship God.
(1 Timothy 2:9-10 [HCSB])
Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:58 [ESV])
but both first to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, and all the region of Judea, and to the Gentiles, I kept declaring to repent and to turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance. (Acts 26:20 [BLB])
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give aeonial* life. (Romans 2:7 [MODIFIED-NIV])*
Interlinear Links: *αἰώνιον (aeonial), Romans 2:7
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21 [ESV])
“‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. (Ezekiel 16:49-50 [NIV])
Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.” (Luke 14:12-14 [NIV])
So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith. (Galatians 6:10 [ESV])
Share with the saints who are in need… (Romans 12:13 [BSB])
All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along. (Galatians 2:10 [NIV])
...Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: break away now from your sins by doing righteousness and from your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor, in case there may be a prolonging of your prosperity.’ (Daniel 4:24-27 [NASB])
“Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?... (Isaiah 58:6-9 [ESV])
Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor will himself call out and not be answered. (Proverbs 21:13 [ESV])
No, it is not.
It is very interesting that you focus on the action but miss the heart. As Utilyan has been trying to show you, without love, giving away all you own to feed every single hungry person in the world, it is nothing. It is still sin.