Everyone has a freewill, except God?

[AAA]

I was going to write this as well, but you beat me to it

What "AAA" is saying is that God is sovereign but he chooses to give up His sovereignty? One way or the other, He longer has "free will".
You can say he Chose to limit himself, as I have heard people say, but that would mean He is still limited.

So, the logical conclusion to what AAA said is that God is so sovereign, he decided to give up His sovereignty in salvation.

"What "AAA" is saying is that God is sovereign but he chooses to give up His sovereignty? One way or the other, He longer has "free will"."


What I was pointing out is that GOD did NOT give up His soveriegnty even if He choses for/against free will or not.

If HE gave up His soveriegnty in HIS plan to save mankind, then locic would say that HE is no longer soveriegnty...Is HE? Now can you show me where in the Bible that it says that GOD gave up His soveriegnty? Because I have never found that verse that you seem to be referring too.

"So, the logical conclusion to what AAA said is that God is so sovereign, he decided to give up His sovereignty in salvation."

Where did I ever say that? That is a strawman arguement, because I have always stated the above statment...."GOD did NOT give up His soveriegnty", in any way shape or form. If HE did so it to me by using a verse from scripture....Thanks

Free will says: "I chose GOD first, and therefore, since I have first chose GOD, HE is now FORCED to chose me." This is not a salvation by God's GRACE, it is a salvation by man's works!

As I said before: Salvaation is by the GRACE of GOD, not man made wroks!
Please read: Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and the whole book of Romans.

:godisgood:

 

[Gershom]

Webdog, you can't have it both ways, someone has to be sovereign in salvation.
It has to be up to SOMEONES will.
Either that will be God, or it will be man.

You believe it is mans will that decides.
I believe your belief is a totally false.

The fact that man has been given the free will to choose does not take away God's sovereignty. It is God's sovereign plan that He decided to allow men to freely choose life or death.

 

[MB]

Hi AAA:

Now can you show me where in the Bible that it says that GOD gave up His soveriegnty?

Was the crucifiction a sovereign act? To allow mere men to crucify Him. To have the power to do so over Christ. In fact Christ even told Pilate he could have no power if it weren't given him of the Father. Didn't God as Christ come to die for men who didn't love or even care about Him. Yet you would like to prove that God could never give up His sovereignty and if He did He wouldn't be Sovereign anymore .
Christ said to pilate;
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Jesus Christ is a member of the God head my friend with men having power over HIM.
MB

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hi AAA:

Was the crucifiction a sovereign act? To allow mere men to crucify Him. To have the power to do so over Christ. In fact Christ even told Pilate he could have no power if it weren't given him of the Father. Didn't God as Christ come to die for men who didn't love or even care about Him. Yet you would like to prove that God could never give up His sovereignty and if He did He wouldn't be Sovereign anymore .
Christ said to pilate;
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Jesus Christ is a member of the God head my friend with men having power over HIM.
MB

It was predestined that men would have that power over Him, read it in Acts.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hi AAA:

Was the crucifiction a sovereign act? To allow mere men to crucify Him. To have the power to do so over Christ. In fact Christ even told Pilate he could have no power if it weren't given him of the Father. Didn't God as Christ come to die for men who didn't love or even care about Him. Yet you would like to prove that God could never give up His sovereignty and if He did He wouldn't be Sovereign anymore .
Christ said to pilate;
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Jesus Christ is a member of the God head my friend with men having power over HIM.
MB

It was the person of Christ in the Godhead that died on the cross and gave up that power. God the Father did not give up power. He predestined that Christ would be crucified by the hands of the men that did it. Do you think God died when Christ died on the cross?

 

[AAA]

Hi AAA:

Was the crucifiction a sovereign act? To allow mere men to crucify Him. To have the power to do so over Christ. In fact Christ even told Pilate he could have no power if it weren't given him of the Father. Didn't God as Christ come to die for men who didn't love or even care about Him. Yet you would like to prove that God could never give up His sovereignty and if He did He wouldn't be Sovereign anymore .
Christ said to pilate;
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Jesus Christ is a member of the God head my friend with men having power over HIM.
MB

They had power over HIM in the terms of position, NOT in the terms of rank. God (the SON) was still soveriegn in that instance, not men as you would like us to believe. Also to have Authority over someone does not make that person that we have to submit to soveriegn, nor does it make Jesus (GOD) not soveriegn...He did not give up His soveriegnty...

Now, GOD is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...

You have delt with the SON. Now deal with God the Father, and the Holy Spirit as well. Where did they give up there God's soveriegnty? And to whom did they give it up to? Who was soveriegn if GOD was not?

:godisgood:

 

[npetreley]

The fact that man has been given the free will to choose does not take away God's sovereignty. It is God's sovereign plan that He decided to allow men to freely choose life or death.

It never ceases to amaze me that people can't see the self-contradictory nature of this assertion. I would have seen right through this argument even when I was a free-willer.

 

[MB]

Hi RB;

It was the person of Christ in the Godhead that died on the cross and gave up that power. God the Father did not give up power. He predestined that Christ would be crucified by the hands of the men that did it. Do you think God died when Christ died on the cross?

CHrist said;
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

How is it you can separate the two when they are both God? Both Christ and the Father laid down there Sovereignty. The Son by allowing the crucifiction to happen. The Father by the same reason. Yes it was predetermined yes it was predestined and yes they both let it happen. Would you like to let your Son die when you could prevent it? Somehow I don't think you would.
My point is Sovereignty is not the control but the Authority. Christ willingly laid down His life for the world and in so doing The Father would not use His authority to stop it. All for the whole world.
MB

 

[MB]

They had power over HIM in the terms of position, NOT in the terms of rank. God (the SON) was still soveriegn in that instance, not men as you would like us to believe.

You really should not assume I would like you to believe that God lost His rank even for a second. There are those here who believe that Sovereignty is absolute control of every action of man. When it is only defined as the Authority to control.

Also to have Authority over someone does not make that person that we have to submit to soveriegn, nor does it make Jesus (GOD) not soveriegn...He did not give up His soveriegnty...

Like I said you really shouldn't assume.

Now, GOD is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...

You have delt with the SON. Now deal with God the Father, and the Holy Spirit as well. Where did they give up there God's soveriegnty? And to whom did they give it up to? Who was soveriegn if GOD was not?

:godisgood:

Actually they both laid down there authority when the crucifiction happened. The Son by allowing man to crucify Him the Father for the same reason. Laying it down or giving it up temporarily is the same thing. By that I mean The Father did nothing to stop it and neither did the Son because it was there will that it happen. Certainly they both could have stopped it but they didn't. If either one had decided to act with there authority we would all still be lost in our sins. You are right that they are still Sovereign and they still retain the rank of Sovereign God.

We have people here who believe that man is unable to do anything unless God makes him do it including sin. They claim that if man could sin with out it being predetermined by God that it happen in the first place. Then God would not be Sovereign.
Count your misunderstanding to by bad gramar.
MB

 

[npetreley]

Was the crucifiction a sovereign act? To allow mere men to crucify Him. To have the power to do so over Christ. In fact Christ even told Pilate he could have no power if it weren't given him of the Father.

The crucifixion is an excellent example of God's total sovereignty, that God dictates how things will happen without ever giving up His power and authority. When they came to take Jesus away...

52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? 54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

This has nothing to do with giving man the "free will" or "sovereignty" to crucify Him. God played out the whole scenario exactly according to His will. Jesus here says that if He wanted it any other way, He could simply have prayed to the Father and got 12 legions of angels to come and protect Him. But God's will would not be fulfilled that way. So He didn't sacrifice God's authority by being crucified, He asserted it.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hi RB;

CHrist said;
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

How is it you can separate the two when they are both God? Both Christ and the Father laid down there Sovereignty. The Son by allowing the crucifiction to happen. The Father by the same reason. Yes it was predetermined yes it was predestined and yes they both let it happen. Would you like to let your Son die when you could prevent it? Somehow I don't think you would.
My point is Sovereignty is not the control but the Authority. Christ willingly laid down His life for the world and in so doing The Father would not use His authority to stop it. All for the whole world.
MB

Very easily. God the Father did not die on the cross. God the Father was the one to whom Jesus said "my God my God, why have you forsaken me". You have to be careful or you will get into modalism. A modalist would say that when Jesus was on the earth in the form of a man, God was no longer in heaven. God was in the mode of Jesus. Is this what you are saying MB? By God allowing/causing things to happen, that does not change His sovereignty. When God allowed men to kill Jesus on the cross, it was a sovereign act, and it could not have happened any differently than God predestined it to happen. God the Father did not die on the cross. Jesus who is co-equal with the Father in divinity, died on the cross. The Godhead did not die on the cross, but one of the Godhead did die, to be resurected by God the Father. Do you see this MB?

My point is that sovereignty is control and authority. It is being in absolute control of everything and being subject to none, including human beings.

 

[MB]

Hi Npetreley

The crucifixion is an excellent example of God's total sovereignty, that God dictates how things will happen without ever giving up His power and authority. When they came to take Jesus away...



This has nothing to do with giving man the "free will" or "sovereignty" to crucify Him. God played out the whole scenario exactly according to His will. Jesus here says that if He wanted it any other way, He could simply have prayed to the Father and got 12 legions of angels to come and protect Him. But God's will would not be fulfilled that way. So He didn't sacrifice God's authority by being crucified, He asserted it.

Actually it does God gave pilate the authority to crucify Christ and he did though he didn't take His life.
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Did Pilate have power over Christ or not? Yes he did is Christ still sovereign yes.
You would say man can't have a voluntary choice in his own Salvation. and God remain Sovereign but Pilate could have the power to crucify Christ Him Self and Christ remains Sovereign. In fact a whole crowd called for His crucifiction because Pilate didn't want to do it.
MB

 

[MB]

My point is that sovereignty is control and authority. It is being in absolute control of everything and being subject to none, including human beings.

Only by a definition of your own and not according to the truth of the real definition of the word Sovereign. One thing I find absolutely repulsive is the redefinning of a word with a false definition. Why not go ahead and say good is bad and bad is good. There isn't any difference. It still isn't what the word means. It means Authority it doesn't mean control in any dictionary
MB

 

[reformedbeliever]

Only by a definition of your own and not according to the truth of the real definition of the word Sovereign. One thing I find absolutely repulsive is the redefinning of a word with a false definition. Why not go ahead and say good is bad and bad is good. There isn't any difference. It still isn't what the word means. It means Authority it doesn't mean control in any dictionary
MB

Does God have authority over the weather or does He control it? Be careful now.......

He both has the authority and control.

I find it repulsive when someone trys to take God's sovereignty and make it something that it is not.

 

[reformedbeliever]

MB. I don't base my definition of God's sovereignty on any dictionary. I use the Holy Bible.

 

[skypair]

Does God have authority over the weather or does He control it? Be careful now.......

He both has the authority and control.

I find it repulsive when someone trys to take God's sovereignty and make it something that it is not.

Authority and control -- but He doesn't always exercise them when He could, right? Like stopping huricane Katrina. Or like making a Calvinist believe. :

skypair

 

[MB]

HI RB;

Does God have authority over the weather or does He control it? Be careful now.......

Oh no a trap!!!!

He both has the authority and control.

He has the authority to control, there is a difference.

I find it repulsive when someone trys to take God's sovereignty and make it something that it is not.

Then why do it? You just wind up making your self look as if you don't understand English
Authority and Sovereignty mean what they mean they do not mean control.
MB

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Where are these Arminians? I have yet to see one.

 

[npetreley]

Authority and control -- but He doesn't always exercise them when He could, right? Like stopping huricane Katrina.

Why do you automatically assume hurricane Katrina occurred by God's permission and not by God's direction?

 

[MB]

Hi Timothy;

Where are these Arminians? I have yet to see one.

Good point. The only ones who believe depravity is total are the Calvinist. I haven't seen any threads on loosing our Salvation either. I know maybe we're all 1 pointers:laugh:
MB