Everyone that believes will be...

[Winman]

I find it interesting that Winman doesn't agree that everyone that believes in Jesus Christ will be saved. And he accused me of not believing that. Double speak much? So I say we know we are elect because we believe. And we know we are saved because we believe. Winman say we know we are elect because we believe, but he doesn't agree that you are saved.

Show me where I ever said you do not believe that those who believe in Christ shall not be saved.

The Roman Catholics believe in Jesus, but most do not believe "on Him". There is an important difference.

All analogies fail, but I will try to explain.

You are in an airplane at 5000 feet. Someone hands you a parachute and asks, Do you believe this parachute can get you safely to the ground? You answer, Yes.

He says, Then put on this parachute and jump out of the plane. You say, NO!

You believe the parachute can get you down safely, but this is not the same as jumping out and actually trusting the parachute to get you down safely.

Most Catholics believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for their sins and rose from the dead, but they do not actually trust him to save them. If you ask them what a person has to do to go to heaven, they will tell you that you must perform the sacraments and do good works. They are not relying on Jesus alone to save them, they are relying on themselves.

No, you have to personally come to Jesus in your heart (Come unto me) for salvation. You have to place your very soul in his hands and depend upon him only to save you.

It is like putting that parachute on and jumping out of the plane, and actually depending on it to get you down safely.

This is what believeing on Jesus means.

 

[jbh28]

Show me where I ever said you do not believe that those who believe in Christ shall not be saved.

I was going by the poll answer...but I know what you are saying. I just found it interesting because you made such a big deal about me not believing that.

The Roman Catholics believe in Jesus, but most do not believe "on Him". There is an important difference.

All analogies fail, but I will try to explain.

You are in an airplane at 5000 feet. Someone hands you a parachute and asks, Do you believe this parachute can get you safely to the ground? You answer, Yes.

He says, Then put on this parachute and jump out of the plane. You say, NO!

You believe the parachute can get you down safely, but this is not the same as jumping out and actually trusting the parachute to get you down safely.

I've used something like that before to. you don't really believe. If you did, you would have put it on. True belief is evidence in our actions. If you really believed, you would have put that parachute on.

Most Catholics believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for their sins and rose from the dead, but they do not actually trust him to save them. If you ask them what a person has to do to go to heaven, they will tell you that you must perform the sacraments and do good works. They are not relying on Jesus alone to save them, they are relying on themselves.

Right, they are not believing in Jesus to save them.

No, you have to personally come to Jesus in your heart (Come unto me) for salvation. You have to place your very soul in his hands and depend upon him only to save you.

It is like putting that parachute on and jumping out of the plane, and actually depending on it to get you down safely.

This is what believeing on Jesus means.

I agree, though I don't make a bid deal about "in" and "on" as they can mean the same, but I see what you are saying. This wasn't meant to be a trick question. I was speaking only of true belief in Christ as you mentioned. I wanted to show that no one believes that you can believe, but might not be saved because you are not elect.

 

[Don]

James 2:19 :"You believe that God is one;you do well.The demons also believe --- and they shutter."

That verse has nothing to do with saving union with Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:39 :"But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed,but those who have faith and obtain life."

I fail to see how this verse negates saving faith.

Others have answered this to satisfaction; in case you didn't catch it, the opening post didn't specify "belief unto the saving of the soul."

If that's what the opening post meant, then you're correct; these two verses don't apply.

If one is talking about merely believing in Jesus, leaving it questionable as to whether it's a belief unto salvation, then there is scriptural evidence that one can believe in Jesus but not be saved.

 

[Tom Butler]

I have to congratulate Winman. With his novel view about election, he has touched a lot of nerves. Never mind that it is a distortion of Calvinism. He has really stirred up things. I have to say that I like to do the same thing. He is a man after my own heart, even if not after my own mind.

BTW, Winman, I haven't seen your exegesis of Romans 5:18. I may have missed it.

 

[preacher4truth]

God promised Abraham that he would have a son, and through his son would be the father of many nations.You can't claim that promise, and neither can I, that promise was to Abraham alone.

Bologna. More error from you winman, as again you transgress and garble against the Word.

This specific promise applies to all believers, as the NT clearly shows us, so yes, we can, and at least those who believe, claim it. That you do not claim this promise to yourself is glaring, and your own words show how you do err, yet again, in saying we cannot claim it, when the Word shows we clearly as believers do claim this unto ourselves.

We are the children of the promise, Romans, 4:17, 9:8 &c. And through this promise it applies to us, and believers claim it that in his seed all the nations will be blessed. The Word proves you again to be incorrect.

You do greatly err in not rightly dividing the Word, which is the Logos. Even in Galatians 3:8 this promise applies to us. But if you will not listen to the Word, then it all falls upon you, as the Word clearly proves you yet again incorrect.

God does know all things before they happen, against your words.

God's Word is not simplistic or simple, as you say.

This promise does apply to us, and we as believers claim it, though you cast it out.

There is winman, and then there is God's Word. I will cling to the latter as Truth.

You continue along making grave error and contortions of the Truth yet again.

 

[Tom Butler]

There a sequence in the salvation process. It is found in Romans 8:28:30
God foreknows whom he will predestine.
God calls those whom he predestines
God justifies those whom he calls.

How do I know I'm elect? Because God called me, and justified me.

The Sunday morning in 1947 (at age 9) that the Lord saved me, election and predestination were the farthest thing from my mind. Actually, I knew nothing about them. I was not the least bit concerned about knowing if I were elect.

Knowing if you're elect is a non-issue.

 

[Jon-Marc]

It depends on what and how one believes. Even the devil believes; he knows that Jesus is the Christ and that He died to saved sinners. However, believing that Jesus IS is not the same as believing and trusting IN Him.

 

[jbh28]

It depends on what and how one believes. Even the devil believes; he knows that Jesus is the Christ and that He died to saved sinners. However, believing that Jesus IS is not the same as believing and trusting IN Him.

Agreed. My question was in regards to the believing and trusting in him.

 

[Winman]

Bologna. More error from you winman, as again you transgress and garble against the Word.

This specific promise applies to all believers, as the NT clearly shows us, so yes, we can, and at least those who believe, claim it. That you do not claim this promise to yourself is glaring, and your own words show how you do err, yet again, in saying we cannot claim it, when the Word shows we clearly as believers do claim this unto ourselves.

We are the children of the promise, Romans, 4:17, 9:8 &c. And through this promise it applies to us, and believers claim it that in his seed all the nations will be blessed. The Word proves you again to be incorrect.

You do greatly err in not rightly dividing the Word, which is the Logos. Even in Galatians 3:8 this promise applies to us. But if you will not listen to the Word, then it all falls upon you, as the Word clearly proves you yet again incorrect.

God does know all things before they happen, against your words.

God's Word is not simplistic or simple, as you say.

This promise does apply to us, and we as believers claim it, though you cast it out.

There is winman, and then there is God's Word. I will cling to the latter as Truth.

You continue along making grave error and contortions of the Truth yet again.

We may be the children of the promise, but only Abraham is the father.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God did not promise to make you or I a father of many nations, he promised Abraham.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

God did not promise to make you the father of many nations, he promised this to Abraham only.

 

[preacher4truth]

We may be the children of the promise, but only Abraham is the father.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God did not promise to make you or I a father of many nations, he promised Abraham.

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

God did not promise to make you the father of many nations, he promised this to Abraham only.

There you go trying to twist your way out of it. It was not for Abraham alone as you said.

Your theology is always changing. And nearly always incorrect.

The last three comments on my last post concerning your doctrines show your erroneous theology at work.

Here they are again:

God does know all things before they happen, against your words.

God's Word is not simplistic or simple, as you say.

This promise does apply to us, and we as believers claim it, though you cast it out.

Enough said.

 

[Winman]

There you go trying to twist your way out of it. It was not for Abraham alone as you said.

Your theology is always changing. And nearly always incorrect.

The last three comments on my last post concerning your doctrines show your erroneous theology at work.

Here they are again:


Enough said.

I haven't changed one bit. I said God promised Abraham to be the father of many nations. I provided scriptural proof from Jesus himself. Show me where it ever calls another believer the father of many nations.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

The scriptures do not call you, nor I, nor any other believer the father of many nations, only Abraham. The promise was to him, you cannot claim his promise to yourself.

 

[percho]

Amy, the devils know and believe who Jesus is, but this cannot save them because no promise is made to them. God has never promised to save fallen angels, only men.

This is what I tried to explain in another post, if Limited Atonement is true and Jesus only died for a few persons, you cannot know that the promise of salvation applies to you unless you know you are elect.

Yes, if you are elect, then Jesus died for you and the promise is to save those who believe. Even a Calvinist does not believe he is saved UNTIL he believes.

But if you are not chosen, you are not elect, then Jesus did not die for you according to Limited Atonement. The non-elect are just like the devils who believe and tremble, their faith cannot save them because no promise is given to them.

Abraham didn't have some magical, mystical faith. No, he had a very specific promise to him personally. No one else could claim this promise except Abraham.

The devils have no promise, and Jesus did not die for them. They know this, and they believe. But they tremble.

Abraham had the promise yet died not having received it. However the promise was also to his one seed who also died and has received it.

 

[percho]

You all have me confused.
Which of the following is the correct translation?

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith on Jesus Christ, even we have believed on Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith on Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[percho]

There a sequence in the salvation process. It is found in Romans 8:28:30
God foreknows whom he will predestine.
God calls those whom he predestines
God justifies those whom he calls.

How do I know I'm elect? Because God called me, and justified me.

The Sunday morning in 1947 (at age 9) that the Lord saved me, election and predestination were the farthest thing from my mind. Actually, I knew nothing about them. I was not the least bit concerned about knowing if I were elect.

Knowing if you're elect is a non-issue.

Two questions from the passage you listed. What is the image of the Son spoken of there and have you been conformed to it yet?

 

[R. Lawson]

Believe!

Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Tom Butler]

Two questions from the passage you listed. What is the image of the Son spoken of there and have you been conformed to it yet?

Haven't completely conformed yet. But I'm working on it. My goal is to conform to his image, so that when people see my life they will recognize that I a follower of the Lord Jesus. Sorta like the believers in Antioch. The people called them Christians. For obvious reasons.

 

[percho]

Haven't completely conformed yet. But I'm working on it. My goal is to conform to his image, so that when people see my life they will recognize that I a follower of the Lord Jesus. Sorta like the believers in Antioch. The people called them Christians. For obvious reasons.

I have always considered the image of the Son here to be post resurrection image of Jesus. That we bearing his image here being the same as in 1 Cor. 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. I think Paul expresses the same thought in Phil. 3:11-14.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You all have me confused.
Which of the following is the correct translation?

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith on Jesus Christ, even we have believed on Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith on Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

There is no Definite Article ('The') before 'works' or 'faith' in the original Greek.

It is generally agreed that the Greek is an Objective Genitive meaning that it is our faith towards or in respect of the Lord Jesus.

There are a few people who think that it is a Subjective Genitive meaning that it is the personal faith or faithfulness of our Lord that saves us, but for a number of technical reasons, that is not a widely-held view.

I hope that helps.

Steve

 

[Tom Butler]

I have always considered the image of the Son here to be post resurrection image of Jesus. That we bearing his image here being the same as in 1 Cor. 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. I think Paul expresses the same thought in Phil. 3:11-14.

I grant your point.

Another way of saying "Christian" is "Christ-liker" (like Christ) or "Christ-one."
So, if somebody labels you as a Christian, he has seen something about you that identifies you with Christ, which suggest that you carry the image of Christ.

I wouldn't go to the mat for this view, but it makes sense to me.

And so does your view.

 

[percho]

There is no Definite Article ('The') before 'works' or 'faith' in the original Greek.

It is generally agreed that the Greek is an Objective Genitive meaning that it is our faith towards or in respect of the Lord Jesus.

There are a few people who think that it is a Subjective Genitive meaning that it is the personal faith or faithfulness of our Lord that saves us, but for a number of technical reasons, that is not a widely-held view.

I hope that helps.

Steve

Well I just did a little research and as I am sure you know there's more out there to be found than could be studied in a lifetime and being 68 more than likely not enough time left so let me ask this ?. Heb. 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry [land]: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. Did they pass through the sea because of their faith in God, the faith of Moses or because of the faithfulness of God to a promise made to Abraham four hundred and thirty years and a few days earlier? Please take under consideration their moaning and groaning maybe that very day and making a golden calf idol a few weeks later not to mention the story of the manna.