Evolutionary Propoganda - A True Story

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
But I know more about the Lord and His word than you do, for if you knew anything about the Lord you couldn't possibly believe in the evolution heresy. I will continue to preach creation as the absolute truth and brand you all as infidels and heretics for not believing it.

That phrase just made me laugh. Perhaps the other side knows more about God, and you just haven't "gotten to that point" yet. Either way, there is no excuse to be prideful, I don't think.

I also would wonder what your answer would be about the geocentric point mentioned earlier. If we take the Bible as literal, we see that the earth is the center of the solar system and the center of the world. Do you believe that? Why or why not? Why take the Bible as symbolic there, but not in the creation story?

As Paul said,

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

And how does believing that God used evolutionary processes take away from that verse? (It doesn't.)

And again,

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again - how is evolutionary theory antithetical to that verse?

That, my frieds, is all the "science" I need to reject the evolution heresy.

Funny, those two verses don't even enter into the equation. How does those verses specifically call evolution theorists heretics and infidels.

 

[UTEOTW]

Still insisting your literal interpretation is correct, eh?

Will you take a stand for or against the literal interpretation that says that the earth is the center of the universe and that the sun (and everything else for that matter) goes around an unmoving earth?

If you are going to be consistent you should. But you won't. I'd bet you will not even address it.

If you say that you also take these verses literally and that you are a geocentrist, you will lose face with the vast majority that knows that geocentrism is dead and your weight on the topic of YEC will be reduced. If you try and explain how you know these verses should be taken as something other than literal, you will have defeated your own argument that the creation week be taken as literal as you admit that sometimes you take a meaning other than literal when you apply other knowledge.

Psalms 93:1

...the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

Psalms 96:10

...the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved...

Psalms 104:5

Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

1 Chronicals 16:30

...the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Joshua 10:13

And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Ecclesiastes 1:5

The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.

 

[Brett]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
I will continue to preach creation as the absolute truth and brand you all as infidels and heretics for not believing it.

God bless you. </font>[/QUOTE]God will not bless anyone for being afraid of the truth, not will He bless people like Mark who seem to think their knowledge of the world somehow compares with God's. And neither will he bless someone who's primary goal at this board, as it seems to me, has been to cause anger and especially divisiveness among his fellow Christians by saying that it's his way or the highway, and that anyone who disagrees with him is unsaved and is a heretic. Divisiveness has no place in the brotherhood of Christ.

 

[Travelsong]

It would truly be a blessing from God if Mark's eye's were opened and he were able to see just how wrong his divisiveness is, don't you agree? Any time one comes to a greater understanding of Christian love and life, it is a blessing. I wish great blessing upon every contentious strife causing brother and sister in the body. I hope you feel the same way Brett.

 

[UTEOTW]

It is almost an honor to be branded as an infidel by someone who is so sure of his own opinion that he is unwilling to even consider the evidence and can only put forward as reason his own thoughts, opinions and interpretations. Someone who can put no facts before the discussion and is proud that he is uninformed about the debate and intends to remain in the dark. Someone who can only hurl insults at fellow believers with whom he does not agree to the point of publicly doubting the salvation of those who do not share his opinion. To be branded an infidel and a heretic by someone who mocks and insults fellow Christians and fellow Baptists with whom he disagrees on a matter about which he willfully discusses while being willfully uninformed, bringing nothing of value to the table, must mean I am on on the right track.

There seems to be a track record, here. This is not the first time I have recently seen you doubt the salvation of someone who dares to disagree with you. It is divisive at the very least. Contrast this with what I have said on this thread. I have not doubted your salvation. I have not insulted you. I have not even intimated that you were ignorant or stupid, though I have dealt harshly with what are weak or nonexistant arguments. You refuse to even look at the facts to enable the possibility of informed debate and instead hurl insults. I surely hope that my discussions on this are not as disruptive. I believe that this is an important issue to be discussed, settled, and put behind us. There are much more important issues out there, but this one has the possibility of diving Christians and making us look foolish in the eyes of the world to the point of hurting the ability to reach the lost. And it is partly this ability to divide if not settled that leads it to be something I wantto discuss. (The other part is the frustration I feel when I see some of the lengths YECers will go to to defend their position.)

As far as you summarizing the evolution argument with "We know more about it than you do..." Well, what is wrong with going to those who are experts in a field? If you needed heart surgery, you wouldn't get your mechanic to do it. Matter of fact, you would likely want the best heart surgeon you could find. By the same token, you would not get your family practitioner to work on your transmission. You wouldn't hire a tailor to build a deck on your house. But you will deny all of modern biology and astronomy and geology and most of the rest of modern science because you think you are so much smarter than they are. You ignore all the Christians who work in these fields and have absolutely no problem with accepting both science and the Bible and instead blame it all on infidels and heretics. And you ignore the fact that the more one has studied the subject, the closer one's profession is to evolution, the more formal training one has had in the relevent fields, the more likely one is to accept evolution. God has given us a wonderful universe and you will not even allow yourself the privilege of learning about how it works, how beautiful and astonishing it can be. And those who do so cannot possibly be Christians in your mind. I'm glad you are not my judge.

So, are you a geocentrist?

 

[j_barner2000]

Personally I don't have a problem with the theory that God created the Earth 6 thousand years ago with a mature aspect. Just as I believe He created Adam and Eve as ADULTS, and animals as mature and mature trees. You see the God I serve is able to do anything He wants. He could even make apes similar to us if He wants to.

I do not entirely dismiss the theory of evolution. However I cannot embrace it in the commonly accepted version, because it takes way too much faith in the meager understanding of man.

I have decided that God has revealed what He has revealed and so I will base my factual statements upon the the evidence I have seen in the Bible.

I do know that any time that a person attempts to diminish God's soverignty, I will not listen to them.. I also know that we will not know for a certainty the whole story till He himself reveals it to us.

 

[Brett]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
It would truly be a blessing from God if Mark's eye's were opened and he were able to see just how wrong his divisiveness is, don't you agree? Any time one comes to a greater understanding of Christian love and life, it is a blessing. I wish great blessing upon every contentious strife causing brother and sister in the body. I hope you feel the same way Brett.

I certainly do. As I mature as a Christian (something that is certainly an ongoing process! ), I see more and more of God's gifts and wisdom. Each advance in this knowledge is truly one of God's greatest blessings.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by UTEOTW:
Will you take a stand for or against the literal interpretation that says that the earth is the center of the universe and that the sun (and everything else for that matter) goes around an unmoving earth?

The statements about the sun "rising and setting" no more speak to the matter of the movement of the sun than when we speak of the sun "rising and setting." This is not a figurative versus literal statement. It is a statement of observation and, in fact, as far as our observation the sun does "rise and set" in our sky.

Here is what the Bible actually does say on the subject of earth's orbit:

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in" (Isaiah 40:22).

Here we have some bona fide "figurative" statements drawn from literal astronomical statments. Isaiah says the Lord "sits on the circle of the earth." The term "circle" used in the King James Bible means a "circuit" or "orbit." Therefore we have an explicit statement that the earth has an orbit.

Now I don't know anyone who believes that God actually sits on the earth's orbit, or on anything else, any more than they believe that men are grasshoppers or that the heavens are a curtain or a tent. These are obviously figures designed to portray the magnitude and majesty of God.

By contrast, the statements in Genesis about the creation are neither statements of observation - as with the sun "sitting and rising" - nor figurative statements, as with grasshoppers, curtains, or tents. The statements of Genesis, taken at face value, are intended as historical statements about the time and manner of the creation.

That the Lord intended them this way is evident, for when He delivered the Ten Commandments to the Jews, He said,

"For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

Anyone who reads this knows full well that the author of Exodus - even were he dead wrong - intended to convey the idea that it took six days for God to create the earth. Therefore, the man who rejects this statment simply rejects the authenticity and authority of the Scriptures.

You quote the 93rd Psalm,

the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

This (and similar passages) does not say that the earth is stationary; it says the earth is permanant.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[UTEOTW]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
This (and similar passages) does not say that the earth is stationary; it says the earth is permanant.

I know that and you know that, but that is not the literal reading. Ask any of our geocentrist friends. Literally, it says that the earth does not move.

Isaiah says the Lord "sits on the circle of the earth." The term "circle" used in the King James Bible means a "circuit" or "orbit." Therefore we have an explicit statement that the earth has an orbit.

First time I have ever seen that interpretation used. Generally one side tries to twist it to say that this indicates a round earth while others try topoint out that this is a reference to the belief of the day of a flat, circular earth. Never seen it describe an orbit before. I'll have to look into that one a little more closely.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by UTEOTW:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
This (and similar passages) does not say that the earth is stationary; it says the earth is permanant.

I know that and you know that, but that is not the literal reading. Ask any of our geocentrist friends. Literally, it says that the earth does not move.</font>[/QUOTE]The literal reading is that the earth will not be moved. You are reading it as if it says the earth doesn't move. If I errected a revolving antenna in my yard and said "it shall not be moved" I literally mean it shall not be moved; not that it doesn't move.

The very fact that you bring up such a weak and obviously fallicious argument manifests the paucity of your case.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Terry_Herrington]

Mark, there is no way that anything you, or anybody else can say that will convince these fools who believe in evolution that they are wrong. This evil belief just goes with many of today's "modern" churches. It fits right in with humanism.

There view is that the Bible is true only when it can be verified by science. Thank God that it cannot. If it were possible to prove creationism, it would not require faith to believe God.

Proverbs 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
(KJV)

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
Mark, there is no way that anything you, or anybody else can say that will convince these fools who believe in evolution that they are wrong. This evil belief just goes with many of today's "modern" churches. It fits right in with humanism.

You are right. And I also note that, if you could pick the minds of these men, you'd find that evolution is probably not the only heresy to which they hold. Those who believe in evolution almost invariably hold to many other abberant views on Scriptural matters, which is just another indication of their wickedness and foolishness.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Terry_Herrington]

I agree Mark, if you think that God lied in one part of His Word, it would be easy to believe that He lied in other places.

I cannot explain much about what is called "science" today, and I am certainly no biblical scholar. I just choose to believe what God has reveiled in His Word over what some "educated" men say.

Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
(KJV)

 

[doug_mmm]

Terry,

No one is accusing God of lying !

Should we be burned at the stake for heresy ?
The issue is the interpretation of days in Genesis given what scientific knowledge we have.

As for wrong in one part of the Bible then....

This is nonsense. You know fine well there are problems with numbers in the Old Testament. Nobody then turns round and says its all wrong then. Debate centers on the make up and interpretation of numbers. No issue here.

The mindset of 'if the Bible says it then I must take it absolutely literally and if I don't I'm a heretic' is delusional nonsense.

If our eyes cause us to sin.....shifting mountains based on faith the size of a mustard seed....

This additional mindset of pseudo martyrdom because nobody accepts my literal interpretation is likewise nonsense, and dangerous unChristian nonsense at that. They are not being persecuted for being Christians they are being questioned on defending dogmatic and sometimes indefensible positions. That has nothing to do with their Christianity, an atheist could be just as unreasonable and claim persecution. It is cult of Victimology bandwagon nonsense.

I supplied a link earlier re the International Flat Earth Society and its President takes the Bible literally. Think what he'd make of you for saying the Earth was a globe ( or are you a flat earther- geocentrist ? ). He no doubt claims monopoly of Christian truth and we are all demonic agents parachuted in on a dark moonlight night to subvert Christendom.

It is not worthy as a Christian to insist that everyone has to accept their narrow 6 day creation viewpoint and everyone else who doesnt is a heretic , unsaved, apostate, etc etc.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by doug_mmm:
You know fine well there are problems with numbers in the Old Testament.

Keep going, Doug. Tell us some more of the "problems" you have with the Old Testament. And when you get done with the Old, tell us all the problems you have with the New. Show us how smart you are that you see all these problems to which all of us blind old Fundamentalists close our eyes.

I would bet my last dollar that most of your "problems" are the same ones I read in a "Free Thinkers" handbook to the Bible. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be too hestitant to bet that you learned about these "problems" with the Bible by reading some infidel literature.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Brett]

Originally posted by Terry_Herrington:
I agree Mark, if you think that God lied in one part of His Word, it would be easy to believe that He lied in other places.

I cannot explain much about what is called "science" today, and I am certainly no biblical scholar. I just choose to believe what God has reveiled in His Word over what some "educated" men say.

Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
(KJV)

The fact that you must make up strawmen to knock down instead of actually arguing the evidence is weakness if your side's case. Nobody here is saying that God lied. What evolutionists believe is that the verses which seem to support a 6-day Creation are, in fact, metaphorical. What, do you need to completely misrepresent us in order to debate with us?

Perhaps you're scared of the statistical evidence showing that learning about evolution is the best conduit to believing it. If the evidence does not support evolution, why would this be so? Surely those who examine such a "false" theory would be LESS inclined to believe it, not more.

 

[doug_mmm]

Keep going, Doug. Tell us some more of the "problems" you have with the Old Testament.
And when you get done with the Old, tell us all the problems you have with the New. Show us how smart you are that you see all these problems to which all of us blind old Fundamentalists close our eyes.

Thats bitter Mark.

I would bet my last dollar that most of your "problems" are the same ones I read in a "Free Thinkers" handbook to the Bible. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be too hestitant to bet that you learned about these "problems" with the Bible by reading some infidel literature.

As Brett rightly states you have set up a Straw Man to attack.

No the alleged problems with numbers I read about in the Lion Handbook to the Bible.
Link - Amazon Description Link to Lion Handbook of the Bible.

I believe the alleged numbers problems are also addressed in

Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties- Archer
Link - Amazon Descriptioni Link to Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties

I suppose Archer is a heretic too ?

BTW "I would bet my last dollar" ! I thought Christians weren't supposed to bet ??? Thats not a very good witness, you must be heretic, indeed I doubt your very salvation ! A dogmatic ole fundamentalist ? Betting ? I suppose your local skeptics chapter give you a lift to the betting shop ?

Okay tongue in cheek, just a friendly ribbing !But Mark/Ted do you see how it sounds ? Think about it. Thats what you are doing to Christians who take a long ages Creation viewpoint. Respectful disagreement is one thing , innuendo that we dine with the devil and aren't saved are most ungracious and unChristian comments.

 

[Tanker]

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Perhaps you're scared of the statistical evidence showing that learning about evolution is the best conduit to believing it. If the evidence does not support evolution, why would this be so? Surely those who examine such a "false" theory would be LESS inclined to believe it, not more.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

It is really remarkable how Mark and others are so ready to denounce a theory that they know so little about, by their own admission. I suspect that Mark's problem in this area reflects a lack of education and an unwillingness to learn new things, because the new things he might learn are at odds with what he "knows". He would do well to indulge in a little secular education to go along with his brief stint in a backwater bible college.

 

[doug_mmm]

Tanker,

Agreed, well spoken.

That type of fundamentalism really scares me. Shades of a Christian Iran. No reasoning, no commonsense just sheer blind unadulterated dogma. More importantly it discredits Jesus. The trouble is the persecution psychology kicks in and the proponents only become more unreasonable. It doesn't end well.

One commentator wrote about the psychology of religion and the gullibility that it can produce. The Jim Jones cult suicide was a classic example. You isolate people, demand sheer blind faith in the leaders interpretation and lo and behold madness sets in. Even when Jim Jones pronounced to the cult that he alone was the only one among hundreds allowed to have sex they still believed him. Such credulity. His secretary used to call up people 'for the leader', even married woman.
Similiar in Heaven's Gate cult. Blind obedience , create a siege mentality, narrow interpretation... creeping insanity.

They say even in those cults that predict 'the end of the world will occur on mm/dd/yy and it doesn't rather than say 'we were wrong' they actually become more fanatical.' Group persecution from embarrassment and ridicule drives them together.

What it speaks to me is we need to be very careful about dogma and fundamentalism. ( and yes liberalism too ! ). The pendulum can swing both ways. The Young Earth Creationists ( well lets say a significant proportion ) retreat behind 'we are the enlightened ones' and everyone else doesn't have their true spiritual insight. With tub thumping fundamentalism they bully and psychologically intimidate other Christians with innuendo and rebuke.

I get a really bad taste from that.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by doug_mmm:
Thats bitter Mark.

Yes sir, it is bitter. Just as Jeremiah said,

Know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

You said,

No the alleged problems with numbers I read about in the Lion Handbook to the Bible.

At least you admit that you didn't read them in the Bible itself. I don't know anything about the "Lion Handbook to the Bible." I do know that many Bible handbooks are just infidel books in disguise.

So are you going to tell us the other problems you have learned about the Bible? Tell us how many other passages you think are "metaphorical"?

Do you think the representation of hell is metaphorical? What about when the Bible says the Lord slew thousands of people? Was that metaphorical too? Or when He commanded the slaughter of men, women, and sucklings? Do you have a "problem" with that?

What about the virgin birth? The resurrection? Are they metaphorical too?

Come on, Doug, tell us just how far down the slippery slope of infidelity you have slid.

Mark Osgatharp