Exhaustive Foreknowledge

[JesusFan]

I think it takes a lot of theological gyrations to make Romans chapter 9 support the view that God before creation, as his primary purpose and desire, was to create millions of people for the sole purpose of burning in Hell for all eternity. While it is true that God's electing grace is in operation and mentioned as being in effect in Romans 9 the purpose is to help Jewish folks understand that God's electing grace is not based on ethnicity or on pursuing the legal righteousness of the law and to make all of us who do believe appreciative of God's grace because as stated in verse 29 we could just as well have ended up as Sodom and Gomorrah.

To go further than that, and try to act as if our message is to proclaim that God has chosen multitudes for damnation and hell before they were ever born is not what I think Romans 9 is about. And I do think that it is quite possible that this is a serious misrepresentation of God's character.

we can state that per the scriptures predestination and election refers to an act of will by God to save out from among all lost sinner's a group of people unto Himself, as shown in the faithful remnant out from among national Israel there were saved out spiritual Israel even in OT times.

 

[JesusFan]

I have no problem with the way you put these things in the quoted post. Especially I like the idea that people should know that if they do believe they are experiencing great evidence that they are indeed vessels of mercy. I also believe that all of us, if left without God's gracious influence, would easily end up as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

But that is not quite the same as the assertion made by some extreme Calvinists, who like to represent God choosing the elder brother to serve the younger even before they had personally done anything good or bad themselves as meaning that God sends people to eternal damnation in the same way. They then say that God makes people for hell like a potter makes vessels for different purposes and make the primary warning to be that we should not object to him doing that.

Such a warning is not fair to God, because that is not what he is doing and it's not fair to people who hear this and then become worried that they might be dealing with a God who in spite of them now going through 8 chapters of God's unfolding plan of salvation and maybe having their eyes starting to be opened as to what this is all about are suddenly and abruptly told that it's quite possible they are the clay fit for destruction and are warned not to dare object to it. To be clear, many Calvinists do not do this, and when they warn us not to object to God saving some and damning others it is with the understanding that this is due to the fact that we all are busily fitting ourselves for destruction until God intervenes, not that we are just being the lump of clay he has made. I hope you see the difference.

Think that you are referring to the John Calvin view of double predestination here

 

[JesusFan]

I agree that He knows everything. I also know that sometimes He doesn’t know everything. Sounds like a contradiction, right? But it’s all in God’s Word. Why are so many Christians too afraid to say “I just don’t know”? Can any of us honestly say that we know the full extent of the Holy Trinity? I’m not arrogant enough to try to fit God into some kind of theological box.

Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

How can God not know and still remain as God, as isn't all knowing one of His divine attributes?

 

[JesusFan]

Hi Nolan,

I fear we hold quite different views of "Divine Knowledge." In any event a great topic for study and discussion.

You hold to God really limited Himself and caused Himself to not know certain things until they actually happen, correct?

 

[DaveXR650]

Molinism trying to keep God limited in his knowledge, and bases kit more upon foreknowledge, but still states that he waits upon what we choose to do, as made himself ignorant to "freewill choices"

I didn't even know about something called "Molinism" until a few months ago but I think in Molinism the idea is that a true "free will" choice simply cannot be known because it does not exist yet. Therefore even God can't know what the choice will be. But then they say God knows all the possible choices, and all the results of those choices and all the ways the choices can effect other choices and has a plan for every single possible case. They appear to be trying to allow for true "free will" without infringing upon God's sovereignty. And, it isn't new either. Apparently, it comes from a Jesuit priest from the 16th century.

If you are interested, there is more work being done on ways to handle the concept of free will and God's sovereignty and on what Calvinist theologians believed. One book would be "Divine Will and Human Choice" by Richard Muller. I will freely admit that it is above my ability and at this point in my life I probably won't try to understand it. But it does indicate that early Calvinist theologians may have had a more sophisticated view of God's sovereignty and man's free will than we think.

 

[DaveXR650]

Think that you are referring to the John Calvin view of double predestination here

Somewhat. We all have to admit that if God can know the future then he must know that millions will be lost and he had to know Adam would fail as our original representative. But do we know that God's primary desire in creating millions of people was that he wanted them to burn in hell forever and he so set that as a future event that he causally works to make so? That is what a branch of Calvinism openly asserts and I disagree with it. In fairness to Calvin, he didn't shy away from predestination but if you read his commentary on John 3:16 he also didn't shy away from saying God loved the whole world, without modifying the meaning of "world" and he seemed to not have thought much about the extent of the atonement, because some of the things he did say indicate no limitation of the atonement.

 

[JesusFan]

I didn't even know about something called "Molinism" until a few months ago but I think in Molinism the idea is that a true "free will" choice simply cannot be known because it does not exist yet. Therefore even God can't know what the choice will be. But then they say God knows all the possible choices, and all the results of those choices and all the ways the choices can effect other choices and has a plan for every single possible case. They appear to be trying to allow for true "free will" without infringing upon God's sovereignty. And, it isn't new either. Apparently, it comes from a Jesuit priest from the 16th century.

If you are interested, there is more work being done on ways to handle the concept of free will and God's sovereignty and on what Calvinist theologians believed. One book would be "Divine Will and Human Choice" by Richard Muller. I will freely admit that it is above my ability and at this point in my life I probably won't try to understand it. But it does indicate that early Calvinist theologians may have had a more sophisticated view of God's sovereignty and man's free will than we think.

I'm a Calvinist, and balance the tension between Sovereignty of God and our free will by holding to only God has unlimited full free will, as all others have a limited free will, based upon our natures bound and constrained by the sinful nature

 

[DaveXR650]

I'm a Calvinist, and balance the tension between Sovereignty of God and our free will by holding to only God has unlimited full free will, as all others have a limited free will, based upon our natures bound and constrained by the sinful nature

I agree. I even would agree that God has every right to dispose of all of us as he sees fit. Fortunately, God has in scripture revealed how he wants to deal with us and how he wants to treat us and we can rest assured that if you are in any way contemplating turning to God and repenting and believing in Christ he has promised to receive you. To teach in Romans 9 for example, that one can use the example of Jacob and Esau to show that God may choose to send you to hell as you might discard a piece in a clay modeling project is simply the wrong way to teach it. All Calvinists don't do that but the ones that do should think this through and read the whole chapter. To teach God's sovereignty, and not also mention that God also has chosen to love us, and to forget that in the same chapter coming by faith is always there along with the warning not to question God's sovereignty is a malpractice of teaching.

 

[Van]

God has always known everything that will happen, as he eiyher determined that to happen from eternity past into His creation, or else already has permitted it to be happening from eternity past.

So did God not know Adam and Eve would fall, did he get "surprised" and had to then go to plan B and the Cross of Christ?

Does he know that Satan will lose in the end then?

False claims and diversionary questions. God not being the author of sin requires open theism. Deal with it, rather than change the subject!!!

 

[Van]

Genesis 22:12 NASB
He said, “Do not reach out your hand against the boy, and do not do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Those blinded by man-made doctrine deny God can choose not to know everything, and learn of attributes from behavior. Scripture of course teaches otherwise.

 

[JesusFan]

False claims and diversionary questions. God not being the author of sin requires open theism. Deal with it, rather than change the subject!!!

Did God create Satan knowing before was made that he would in the future rebel and wage war against Go, or was God caught unawares until Satan actually fell?

 

[JesusFan]

Genesis 22:12 NASB
He said, “Do not reach out your hand against the boy, and do not do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Those blinded by man-made doctrine deny God can choose not to know everything, and learn of attributes from behavior. Scripture of course teaches otherwise.

Its speaking of God in human terms, does not mean literally God did not know if Abraham would not kill off Isaac, did God know where Adam was in the garden or needed to have Adam get him a set of google maps to find him now?

 

[JesusFan]

False claims and diversionary questions. God not being the author of sin requires open theism. Deal with it, rather than change the subject!!!

You are the one that always evadesand does smoke and mirrors, answer # 32

 

[Nolan Stengel]

Its speaking of God in human terms, does not mean literally God did not know if Abraham would not kill off Isaac, did God know where Adam was in the garden or needed to have Adam get him a set of google maps to find him now?

Why is God not capable of speaking in a direct way to His own creatures? He could have simply said He already knew if that’s what He wanted to communicate.

You say that He already knew. The scripture says that He only knew after the fact. Either you are wrong or the scripture is wrong and I’m going to side with the scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

we can state that per the scriptures predestination and election refers to an act of will by God to save out from among all lost sinner's a group of people unto Himself, as shown in the faithful remnant out from among national Israel there were saved out spiritual Israel even in OT times.

Actually the biblical text shows us that post-conversion believers are predestined to 3 future things according to scripture.

Post-conversion Believers are predestined to 3 future things according to scripture.
1] To be conformed to the image of Jesus Romans 8:29, when He is revealed, we shall be like Him 1 John 3:2

2] Adoption as sons Ephesians 1:5, children of God Romans 8:16, redemption of our body Romans 8:23

3] Inheritance in heaven Ephesians 1:11, blessed us with every spiritual blessing Ephesians 1:3, receiving the end of your faith; the salvation of your souls 1 Peter 1:1-9

 

[37818]

God is uncaused eternal and infinite.
An uncaused Cause is finite and temporal.
The Son of God is both.

John 1:2-3.

 

[Van]

Did God create Satan knowing before was made that he would in the future rebel and wage war against Go, or was God caught unawares until Satan actually fell?

Off topic change of subject diversion.

Jesus Fan:
"Its (Genesis 22:12) speaking of God in human terms, does not mean literally God did not know if Abraham would not kill off Isaac, did God know where Adam was in the garden or needed to have Adam get him a set of google maps to find him now?"

Calvinism's claim scripture does not mean what it says.

Jesus Fan"
"You are the one that always evades and does smoke and mirrors, answer # 32"

Off topic "against the man" argumentation

Folks, scripture is clear, God can know whatever He chooses to know, but He also has the power to choose not to know or not remember what He did know. This claim, God MUST know everything imaginable is false doctrine, as scripture means what it says, such as Genesis 22:12, Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32. Since Jesus was said to know all things (John 21:17) yet did not know the time of His Return, "the phrase "to know all" refers not to everything imaginable but whatever is in view contextually.

Biblical Doctrine = Inherit Omniscience
False Doctrine = Infinite Omniscience






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[JesusFan]

Off topic change of subject diversion.

Jesus Fan:
"Its (Genesis 22:12) speaking of God in human terms, does not mean literally God did not know if Abraham would not kill off Isaac, did God know where Adam was in the garden or needed to have Adam get him a set of google maps to find him now?"

Calvinism's claim scripture does not mean what it says.

Jesus Fan"
"You are the one that always evades and does smoke and mirrors, answer # 32"

Off topic "against the man" argumentation

Folks, scripture is clear, God can know whatever He chooses to know, but He also has the power to choose not to know or not remember what He did know. This claim, God MUST know everything imaginable is false doctrine, as scripture means what it says, such as Genesis 22:12, Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32. Since Jesus was said to know all things (John 21:17) yet did not know the time of His Return, "the phrase "to know all" refers not to everything imaginable but whatever is in view contextually.

Biblical Doctrine = Inherit Omniscience
False Doctrine = Infinite Omniscience






Like Quote Reply

Report

Yes or no, did God ever have to learn anything He did not know beforehand?

 

[JesusFan]

Why is God not capable of speaking in a direct way to His own creatures? He could have simply said He already knew if that’s what He wanted to communicate.

You say that He already knew. The scripture says that He only knew after the fact. Either you are wrong or the scripture is wrong and I’m going to side with the scripture.

What dies Omniscience mean to you as a divine attribute for God then?

 

[Van]

Yes or no, did God ever have to learn anything He did not know beforehand?

Folks, scripture is clear, God can know whatever He chooses to know, but He also has the power to choose not to know or not remember what He did know. This claim, God MUST know everything imaginable is false doctrine, as scripture means what it says, such as Genesis 22:12, Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32. Since Jesus was said to know all things (John 21:17) yet did not know the time of His Return, "the phrase "to know all" refers not to everything imaginable but whatever is in view contextually.

Biblical Doctrine = Inherit Omniscience
False Doctrine = Infinite Omniscience