37818
Well-Known Member
Mark 14:12 is the biblical account. And gives us Jewish calendar date. Irrespective of a year.
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Exodus 12:18
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The point of history is it cannot.
We can know a lot. Aviv (literally "springtime") was later renamed Nisan. Rosh Chodashim (Nisan 1) starts the ceremonial year.
And we know that every 19 years a month was added. And we know that on the aviv when the harvest (barley) was not yet ready a month was added.
Most importantly we know that the initial calendar was observation (Nisan 1 was not started unless two messengers reported by sight, which meant if the month should have started by calculation but it was overcast the month did not begin.....hence the Seleucid interference prior to the Hasmonean period).
So no, all of our calcukations put together can not tell us what the two messengers actually observed.
All you are doing is calculating the phases of the moon.
You are following a 12th century calendar to proclaim what the Jews saw eleven centuries earlier. Pure foolishness.
Kinda. It let's us know how the Jews practiced tge Passover. And it let's us know they combined the day prior to the Feast as the "passover".
It does not provide dates that could align with your 12th century Hebrew lunar calendar.
37818
Well-Known Member
Video in Post #7 claims to compare the three Calendars.
37818
Well-Known Member
How do you understand Exodus 12:18 identifing the seven days of unleavened bread? Where according to Deuteronomy 16:8 the seven day feast is discribed as only having six days of unleavened bread.
Fact, only seven days of unleavened bread are commanded. Not eight.
But they cannot compare the OT Hebrew Calendar without knowing the exact location and weather conditions.....so that video is false (we simply do not have that type of technology). The best they can do is account for solar and lunar cycles (the 12th Century Hebrew Calendar).
And without knowing the observation part they cannot account for the "observation and reckoning" Hebrew Calendar used from 500 BC to 300 AD.
Write the video developer and ask exactly how they knew where the messengers stood and the forecast for that exact spot.
The best we can do is rely on the mathametical solar-lunar method, which is different from the Hebrew Calendar used during the Biblical (OT & NT) periods.
The reason this is concerning is it is no different from people looking to evolution to explain Scripture.
37818
Well-Known Member
The Jewish Calendar with it's holy days and observances are according to the Mosaic.Law. Those calendar observances haven't changed, less of course the Temple sacrifices.
It has changed in the type of Calendar over time.
In the OT it was based on observance (not calculation). This was the point of the Seleucid interference. It had to be "observed". Two people would testify as to having observed, or seen with their eyes, the moon.
During the 1st century the Temple had drifted from bring a godly place. They cheated the Jews for profit. They drifted from the Law.
During the 1st Century, for example, the Temple currency had an image of Baal on one side, which is ironic (they used Shekels of Tyre).
During the 1st Century AD the Jews used a method called "observation and reckoning".
Calculated lunar cycles were used from the 12th Centuty AD forward.
You have invested a lot of time trying to prove a secular date (much like evolutionists trying to scientifically prove Creation and Catholics "proving" where Jesus was born).
So I recognize your reluctance to allow facts to interfere with your theory. That is fine. You are wrong, but I am posting for others who pass by.
To them I say set aside worldly foolishness. Trust Scripture and avoid silly theories. We cannot convert those times to Julian dates because it is impossible to know what was observed.
We can use calculations to determine the lunar cycles, but this only gets us to the 12th Century Hebrew Calendar (the calendar based on calculations to determine the lunar cycle rather than observation and observation and reckoning.
Calculating the lunar cycle does not account for the messengers not being able to observe the moon due to weather event (or Seleucid interference). Lunar cycles do not acvoubt for reckoning (crop status, Bablyonian influence).
To those who pass by, it may seem like a minor thing but it is not. Don't be carried away by vain theories and secular calendars.
When you do you end up compromising your witness to other people. You turn the Biblical account into a mythology. You introduce the possibility of becoming a stumbling block for others by leaning upon and insisting on your own understanding when others see the mistake you may ignore. Avoid such foolishness.
37818
Well-Known Member
There were other unwritten rules that had been kept.
So . . .
Days of week on Hebrew calendar - Wikipedia
"The modern Hebrew calendar has been designed to ensure that certain holy days and festivals do not fall on certain days of the week. As a result, there are only four possible patterns of days on which festivals can fall."
Yes, there were a lot of rules implemented (not unwritten...the Jewish leaders wrote laws).
When it come to Passover falling on the Sabbath, for example, the preperation was moved up to accommodate the "work" being performed prior to Passover. There were also accommodations made for Jews traveling from outside of Jerusalem (a situation that did not exist to the same extent in the OT).
I agree that the modern Hebrew Calendar is less subjective than the Hebrew Calendar prior to the 12th century AD.
It would have been cool had the ancient Hebrews followed the mathametical lunar calendar....but then again there is something said to basing it on the witness of two witnesses as well.
The reason the calculation method does not guarantee accurate dates is simply that when the Jews adopted this method it was a change from the past to make sure they strictly met the times because the past methods allowed for subjectivity and relied on observation which was not always reliable. It also excluded Bablyonian influences.
In the end you can rightly say that the 12th century Hebrew calendar is more accurate. BUT your conclusion is obviously wrong because the 1st century Hebrew calendar did not use the 12th century method.
The best you can come up with is "it should have been this date". You can't, however, rightly say it was that date.
37818
Well-Known Member
MEMBERS:
Does the readon we cannot know the exact date (Julian Calendar) of the Crucifixion not make sence???
The Hebrew calendar has undergone several changes.
In Exodus it was based on observation.
In 586 BCE, the Babylonian calendar influenced the Hebrew calendar. Jews adopted a solar calendar. The first month of the year was determined by the state of the barley (an additional month could be added).
lThis calendar was one of "observation and rekoning".
Hillel II's calendar was introduced in 359 AD. This was a fixed lunisolar calendar based on calculation and astronimical observances. This fixed the length of months as well.
In the 12th century AD the Hebrew Calendar was changed to be based on lunar calculations.
Modern programs and tell us the lunar cycles in the 1st century. BUT observations during this time, weather conditions during this time, etc. remain unknown.
It is therefore impossible to determine the exact date (Julian Calendar) of the Crucifixion.
More importantly, it does not matter that it is impossible to know that exact date (just as it does not matter that we cannot know the exact location of Jesus' birth).
Does the readon we cannot know the exact date (Julian Calendar) of the Crucifixion not make sence???
The Hebrew calendar has undergone several changes.
In Exodus it was based on observation.
In 586 BCE, the Babylonian calendar influenced the Hebrew calendar. Jews adopted a solar calendar. The first month of the year was determined by the state of the barley (an additional month could be added).
lThis calendar was one of "observation and rekoning".
Hillel II's calendar was introduced in 359 AD. This was a fixed lunisolar calendar based on calculation and astronimical observances. This fixed the length of months as well.
In the 12th century AD the Hebrew Calendar was changed to be based on lunar calculations.
Modern programs and tell us the lunar cycles in the 1st century. BUT observations during this time, weather conditions during this time, etc. remain unknown.
It is therefore impossible to determine the exact date (Julian Calendar) of the Crucifixion.
More importantly, it does not matter that it is impossible to know that exact date (just as it does not matter that we cannot know the exact location of Jesus' birth).
I get the current Hebrew Calendar. I get the other Hebrew Calendars as well.
The current Hebrew Calendar simply was not used in the 1st century (hence the title you provided....the current Jewish calendar).
Let's skip the video and you tell me (let's pretend):
It is 20 AD. You are one of the messengers and step out to see the moon. How is the weather? How is the barley crop (are we adding time)?
It is 700 BC. You step out. What do you see when you look at the sky? Are there clouds obscuring the sky? Is it a clear day? What do you report to the priest?
You are Hillel II. Why exactly do you think the Hebrew calendar needs to be changed in order to be more accurate?
It is the 12th century AD. You are working in calculations to set the Hebrew calendar based on the phases of the moon so as to provide a more accurate system. How was the 1st century AD Hebrew Calendar less accurate?
I get wanting a modern mythology. That's how we do things today - accuracy trump's truth.
37818
Well-Known Member
The holy days of the Mosaic Law of the Biblical Calendar are fixed. How that Calendar is to be observed is at issue, + or - 30 days depending on the year.
The current Jewish Calendar is in dispute here.
There is either a knowable crucifixion date or not. An actual possible calendar day or not.
The prospect of no possible actual Biblical Jewish Calendar day is not tenable.
The current Jewish Calendar is in dispute here.
There is either a knowable crucifixion date or not. An actual possible calendar day or not.
The prospect of no possible actual Biblical Jewish Calendar day is not tenable.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Wrong question.
The Jewish Calendar date, according to the New Testament account. But what was it's actual year?
I don't think that we should follow the Hebrew Calendar. Scripture does not mandate a calendar, per se.
The Hebrew Calendar was structured around ceremonies which ultimately pointed to their fulfillment in Jesus Christ.
IMHO a suggestion that Christians follow the Hebrew Calendar is identical to the argument of the Jewdizers. In the end such a move strives to crucify Christ once again, to foreshadow the coming of a new Messiah.
This is why Christians observe the Supper rather than the Passover. We have a new covenant written in His blood. Death has already passed over and we have been ushered into a new life - His Life.
We do not know the year because we do not know how the 1st century calendar aligned with the Julian Calendar.
Had they used the 12th century AD Hebrew calendar.....maybe even Hillel II's 4th century AD calendar...then we may be able to come up with a date.
But since the 1st century Hebrew Calendar was based on "observation and reckoning" it is impossible to know the exact day in the Julian Calendar (a day off woukd make a huge difference in regard to the year).
In the 1st century AD the witnesses would look for a sliver of moon (this is called kiddush hachodesh).
Here is where your theory, @37818 , fails:
In the 1st century two witnesses had to report having seen a sliver of moon to the Sanhedrin, who would confirm the report. BUT if weather obscured the sky then the first night the moon was observed begin the month.
In the 1st century Jews measured months by luncmar cycles but they measured years by the sun (a solar year is 13 days more than a lunar year, which is the readon for the adjustments in the calendar....the months of a year are counted but never the days of a year).
You are simply wrong, brother. Funny thing is it really doesn't matter. But that is how you came up with a date few scholars would accept.
I think this thread is a good example of not being able to know all that we may want to know.
It is also a good example of knowing all we need to know.
History does not always provide the data that we woukd like. Here @37818 wants to know the exact date Jesus was crucified. But that is impossible.
That said, sometimes (like the impossibility of knowing the exact date of the crucifixion) history can actually provide a greater insight into the ancient world than creating "facts" can provide.
The Jews created rules to follow rules to adhere to laws. But in so doing they missed the point. They failed to see the forrest for the trees (they failed to understand the Messiah to Whom the Law pointed).
This is a warning to us as well. We can become so fixated on knowing what we cannot know, the details and dates, that we miss the point as well.
It is also a good example of knowing all we need to know.
History does not always provide the data that we woukd like. Here @37818 wants to know the exact date Jesus was crucified. But that is impossible.
That said, sometimes (like the impossibility of knowing the exact date of the crucifixion) history can actually provide a greater insight into the ancient world than creating "facts" can provide.
The Jews created rules to follow rules to adhere to laws. But in so doing they missed the point. They failed to see the forrest for the trees (they failed to understand the Messiah to Whom the Law pointed).
This is a warning to us as well. We can become so fixated on knowing what we cannot know, the details and dates, that we miss the point as well.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Why? We know that Christ was crucified, He was buried, & He rose again on the third day. Knowing what day {Wed, Thur, Fri etc} He was crucified on will not change anything.
Question for you? If you do not know the actual day does that cause to to doubt whether He is actually the awaited Messiah?
How many threads have you made on the subject?
What does the bible say is the sign that we should look for?
Mat 12:39 Jesus replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
You either believe what Christ said or you do not.
There have been many theories as to which day He was crucified and they all use the bible and/or the Jews calendar to back up their claim so it seems you are just promoting one of those theories.
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