Expensive facilities!

I personally don't like small congregations, I like large congregations (2000 members plus). I see no reason why I should be made by some to feel ashamed of this.

 

Only when some folks here go on and on about why they think large congregations are wrong.

 

Yes, if the church is open every day with many different programs and services during the day and the senior pastor is there everyday for except for his one day off. And of course large churches have a number of associate pastors who specialize in working with the various groups in the church, i.e.,

• The youth

• The senior citizens

• The New members

• The new Christians

• The Military personnel and their families

• The music program

• Those involved in the Church’s evangelism program

• The Newlyweds

• The educational staff

And these associate pastors have more intimate relationships with the members of their part of the congregation and know when the senior pastor needs to be made aware of the need for him to be more involved in the life of one of these members.

I found that being a senior pastor consumed 70 or more hours a week and those pastors who spend more time on the golf course or at the football stadium than they do with the members of their congregation should probably become pro-golfers or start selling popcorn at football games and step down from the pastoral ministry.

 

I'm going to this big expensive church this
moring for some job related training:

http://www.fsbcdc.org/

 

A family member and about 60-75 others recently started a church.

I have to admit being annoyed at the approach. The deacons ran the church (and probably still do) for 2-3 years in an affordable storefront. They didn't want a pastor until they had a "church".

They bought property worth over $100K and built a nice new church. The total bill is probably around $300K.

Here's the kicker. When the church finally accepted a pastor, he continued a full-time job. This family member says they can't afford to pay their pastor a full-time salary.

Am I the only one to see a pretty unbiblical approach here by men who have been church leaders for many years?

 

The church has an ATM in the
office/business/recreational area

My employer contracted with the Universtiy
of Central Oklahoma (Edmond, OK) to teach
an employee related communication course
(3 hrs). The University of Central Oklahoma
contracted with a teacher from the
University of Oklahoma (OU at Norman, OK)
and got space from the above named church.

 

The church has an ATM in the
office/business/recreational area

My employer contracted with the Universtiy
of Central Oklahoma (Edmond, OK) to teach
an employee related communication course
(3 hrs). The University of Central Oklahoma
contracted with a teacher from the
University of Oklahoma (OU at Norman, OK)
and got space from the above named church.

The ministry of this 'expensive church' goes
far beyond the folks of Del City, Oklahoma.
They are giving up their head pastor to
become the Vice President of the International
Mission Board (IMB) of the SBC = Southern Baptist
Convention. About 1/3 of the workers in my church
are former members of that church.
Thank God for Christians with the vision to produce
'expensive church' properties

 

Yes, if the church is open every day with many different programs and services during the day and the senior pastor is there everyday for except for his one day off. And of course large churches have a number of associate pastors who specialize in working with the various groups in the church, i.e.,

• The youth This is what Sunday school is for, using the lay people.

• The senior citizens This is what Sunday morning is for, and the lay people.

• The New members Thy joined to associate with those of close like faith, and lay people to assist where necessary.

• The new Christians The Pastor with Laypersons should handle this.

• The Military personnel and their families The whole church should be involved.

• The music program If anything breaks the spell or mood of something wonderful of being one, try clapping. When we enter the church it should be for one purpose, and that is to “hear what our God has to say to us”, then we can praise Him in song of one or two afterwards, visiting with one another as we break-up. A short prayer before the sermon of thanks, guidance, for the sick, ailing, and those in need of us, and then preaching the Word of God, not caring whose toes we may step on. If we want to keep the church “small” unprofitable as seen by the world, but great in the Lord, then this is the way to do it. Only those who care about the Lord will be present. Church business, visiting the sick, and the rest can be done on Wednesday night or whenever.

• Those involved in the Church’s evangelism program The members of the church

• The Newlyweds A civil ceremony with papers necessary for protection of each, property and children. The marriage takes place when the two become one; not before, and not afterwards, but at that time.

• The educational staff This is the Pastor, the teachers, and the congregation with the required reading material – the Bible.

And these associate pastors have more intimate relationships with the members of their part of the congregation and know when the senior pastor needs to be made aware of the need for him to be more involved in the life of one of these members.

Sounds like Popeism.

I found that being a senior pastor consumed 70 or more hours a week and those pastors who spend more time on the golf course or at the football stadium than they do with the members of their congregation should probably become pro-golfers or start selling popcorn at football games and step down from the pastoral ministry.

</font>[/QUOTE]Amen! Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12

 

I didn't have too big a problem with "pretty churches" until our church built the new sanctuary. We used to meet in a small one room place that doubled as gym for some of the child care centers. We were friendly, we moved around to exchange hugs and to pray together. We were really a family.

Then the new sanctuary came in with chairs that were nailed to the floor and harder to move around. We got a lot of new people visiting and joining,and they brought new attitudes. They seemed to view church much more like a country club, and they joined saying they loved it as it was, and instantly started trying to change it.

I wish we had the gym back.

 

On the other hand, the churches with some of the biggest buildings in the SBC are those that are most committed to giving to missionaries, as well as sending either on volunteer trips or having missionaries called from their church.

Let's use FBC Woodstock, Georgia for example, just built a huge, expensive facility. But, I would say missionaries have no better supporters than the members of that church. (Just for the record I am not nor have ever been a member of this church.)

 

On the other hand, the churches with some of the biggest buildings in the SBC are those that are most committed to giving to missionaries, as well as sending either on volunteer trips or having missionaries called from their church.

Let's use FBC Woodstock, Georgia for example, just built a huge, expensive facility. But, I would say missionaries have no better supporters than the members of that church. (Just for the record I am not nor have ever been a member of this church.) </font>[/QUOTE]You are right Barjonah for many churches do much missionary work of spreading the Word, and helping the poor, misfits, and those of circumstance. Many years ago, just for my own curiosity I did some averaging (before calculators) of a good number of SBC churches. As expected a good number of small church gave more percentage wise to missions than the large churches. But I will admit some of the larger churches have programs of their own that today do not show up in the “cooperative” programs.

Baptists as a whole are not a bad lot, but each of us will be held accountable, and I believe very few of us will receive anywhere near the rewards that are available. I do hope I am wrong in my assessment, but all I really have to go on is my record, and it is lousy to be sure. But this one thing I know – I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for my salvation, and it will be so for I know by works no one is justified. A good and faithful servant and a pat on the head will suit me just fine. We know His name, but does He know ours? Of course, for we are in His Church. Christian faith, ituttut

 

I used to think that expensive churches were a waste too. But then I started thinking about it, and God told the Israelites to give gold and fine cloth, all that they could, to the building of His tabernacle. Solomon's Temple was extravagant. I know its already been addressed, but I think that if we are building a nice church building in order to honor God than He is indeed honored by it.

Im not saying a church should get into debt and not be able to pay its bills. Thats different. We are building a new building right now, and we've tried to be as economic as possible. It will be nice, but we are not going beyond what God has given us in regards to paying our bills.

Can a pastor care for a large church? I was in a very large IFB church in Southern California for four years. The closer fellowship tended to be structured through the Sunday School classes. The Sunday School teachers were more in the place of a pastor to us...in fact many of the teachers used to be pastors of their own churches themselves. Our teacher was the one who visited us in the hospital when we were there, the one who called us to see if we were ok when we'd been gone for awhile, etc.
Maybe it was more like the NT church days in which there were smaller house churches though it was called one collective church. We just all had our "house church meetings" in one building on Sunday morning.
It worked for them. I sort of felt lost.

 

Never thought I would agree with ituttut on anything but find that he and I agree on this one. I also think Dr. Bob is correct except that I would say 75-100 families and then start a mission church. The problem seems to be that there are so few who really preach from the Scripture. Further there is so much brought into the church that has nothing to do with the worship of God. The belavior of the church today reminds me of the behavior of Israel as recorded in Samuel and Kings.

 

I appreciate your remarks. I think I made the suggestion once on this Forum that what some call bi-vocational pastors might be good for the church and was severely chastized. I still think so.

The church of which I am a member pays the senior pastor well over $100,000 per year. He preaches two sermons a week and the pastoring is done by others. Our membership is 3000 plus, our Sunday morning attendance varies from 900+ to 1300+ in two services yet we are moving into a 2000+ seat auditorium later this year. The cost of the facility is $11,000,000. I say we, but my wife and I are looking.